Milsurp/Older Carry Guns
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Thread: Milsurp/Older Carry Guns

  1. #1
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    Default Milsurp/Older Carry Guns

    Curious if anyone out there carries something other than a plastic fantastic, a modern revolver, or a 1911. I think some less common carry guns, like the Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless in .32 ACP or the Makarov in 9mm Mak, still have merit.

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    I live in western Montana, with bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, as occasional unwanted visitors.

    Every winter, we'll get a few days to a week or more of well below zero temperatures, despite what Al Gore says.

    At those temperatures, plastic becomes as brittle as glass. Don't believe me, ask Caribou, he lives in Alaska, north of the Arctic circle.

    So this what I carry. You could drop it onto frozen ground, then accidentally kick it trying to pick it up, and that doesn't hurt it one bit.

    Don't try that with a plastic fantastic, at twenty below...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_1023[1].JPG  


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    I carry a CZ 82 in 9x18mak caliber occasionally but mostly my Glock 19!
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    Last edited by TFL; 11-11-2019 at 07:10 AM.

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    Absolutely not. While ANY firearm can work carrying a gun, to me, is like having a work truck. It doesn't have to be fancy but I'd rather have a modern truck and not a model T.

    Guns like the Makarov offer no advantage over a M&P2.0c, 320c, Glock 19, CZ P07. They're all about the same size and weight yet one carries less ammo and less potent ammo. I understand if it was smaller or lighter but it's not. Not really much thinner either, depending on which modern gun you compare it too. Why would I carry all that weight and size and have less ammo?

    Same for the Colt pocket hammerless. Shouldn't be carried loaded, the safety is a joke and it's twice the size of modern 380 handguns with a gain of one round. Even some 9mm are smaller

    And with the advent of guns like the G43X, Sig 365 and 365xl and the new Springfield Hellcat.....there's just no point. Unless you think nostalgia wins gun fights

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    Before I moved to the big city, if I went coyote hunting or just out four wheeling I did like to have a bit of fun with whatever I was carrying, sometimes my Makarov went with me, sometimes my century old 1911. Once I bother to get my CC permit though, I won't carry anything that's not modern. Not a knock on older guns, often times they're just as reliable, it's just I don't want to risk using something with sentimental value only to have it sit in evidence for a year, get rusty, or just get "lost". It's much easier, and cheaper nowadays, to replace a Shield 2.0 than most other pistols. Even comblock blowback guns are creeping up in price.

  7. #6
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    I carried my CZ82 for years, until recently switching to the Glock 43X.
    Always looking for interesting 7.62x25 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser cartridges!!!
    Member: International Ammunition Assoc. (IAA), European Cartridge Research Assoc. (ECRA). Ask me about membership!

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    Quote Originally Posted by C80 View Post
    Before I moved to the big city, if I went coyote hunting or just out four wheeling I did like to have a bit of fun with whatever I was carrying, sometimes my Makarov went with me, sometimes my century old 1911. Once I bother to get my CC permit though, I won't carry anything that's not modern. Not a knock on older guns, often times they're just as reliable, it's just I don't want to risk using something with sentimental value only to have it sit in evidence for a year, get rusty, or just get "lost". It's much easier, and cheaper nowadays, to replace a Shield 2.0 than most other pistols. Even comblock blowback guns are creeping up in price.
    Even if it's has no sentimental value there's still the possibility of parts breakage. Old guns...depending on the gun.... maybe hard or next to impossible to find parts for and certainly not as easy as it would be for the Shield. Then there's the whole fitting thing. Where as the Shield is just plug and play.

    Even reliability is meh. Most old guns weren't used much, some were. Most had more than one owner. Then there's the overall quality. Some models had good years and bad, compiled with being old and used. Many are ammo sensitive. It's cool to own and shoot but why risk your life to one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    Absolutely not. While ANY firearm can work carrying a gun, to me, is like having a work truck. It doesn't have to be fancy but I'd rather have a modern truck and not a model T.

    Guns like the Makarov offer no advantage over a M&P2.0c, 320c, Glock 19, CZ P07. They're all about the same size and weight yet one carries less ammo and less potent ammo. I understand if it was smaller or lighter but it's not. Not really much thinner either, depending on which modern gun you compare it too. Why would I carry all that weight and size and have less ammo?

    Same for the Colt pocket hammerless. Shouldn't be carried loaded, the safety is a joke and it's twice the size of modern 380 handguns with a gain of one round. Even some 9mm are smaller

    And with the advent of guns like the G43X, Sig 365 and 365xl and the new Springfield Hellcat.....there's just no point. Unless you think nostalgia wins gun fights
    I completely agree. However, I do think older guns and surplus guns still have merit. Yes they do. Any firearm that still works has merit and remains a better defensive option than a pointed stick or a rock. So, if all someone has available to them is an antique or a Makarov I would advise them to carry it, but only until they can replace it with a modern defensive pistol. If plastic doesn't work for them they can buy something made out of metal, although, plastic pistols are used all over the world in some pretty harsh environments. The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol in Greenland (a unit of the Danish Navy) issues a Glock 20 in 10mm for defense against Polar Bears. They don't have problems using plastic pistols in arctic conditions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamElmerJFudd View Post
    I completely agree. However, I do think older guns and surplus guns still have merit. Yes they do. Any firearm that still works has merit and remains a better defensive option than a pointed stick or a rock. So, if all someone has available to them is an antique or a Makarov I would advise them to carry it, but only until they can replace it with a modern defensive pistol. If plastic doesn't work for them they can buy something made out of metal, although, plastic pistols are used all over the world in some pretty harsh environments. The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol in Greenland (a unit of the Danish Navy) issues a Glock 20 in 10mm for defense against Polar Bears. They don't have problems using plastic pistols in arctic conditions.
    Elmer,

    I agree with you, and Arik, when it comes to depending on Old handguns. I collect old guns, but in Gravest Extreme, we should go forth with the Best gear we can acquire!

    Webley

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    My carry gun depends on when, where and why.

    For exercise and discreet carry.. it's a plastic fantastic in .380 or 32 acp.. just because. I live in florida.. it gets 104' 11.5 months of the year.. and plastic doesn't rust.
    I sometimes carry a full size older sig p230 in .380.

    I sometimes carry a 70's era python 4" barrel.. ex leo gun.

    I like the last one the best..
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamElmerJFudd View Post
    I completely agree. However, I do think older guns and surplus guns still have merit. Yes they do. Any firearm that still works has merit and remains a better defensive option than a pointed stick or a rock. So, if all someone has available to them is an antique or a Makarov I would advise them to carry it, but only until they can replace it with a modern defensive pistol. If plastic doesn't work for them they can buy something made out of metal, although, plastic pistols are used all over the world in some pretty harsh environments. The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol in Greenland (a unit of the Danish Navy) issues a Glock 20 in 10mm for defense against Polar Bears. They don't have problems using plastic pistols in arctic conditions.
    Of course. I just kinda covered that with a quick sentence of ANY gun will work

    "Surplus" and "older" are very broad terms. I mean you can have surplus Sig 228 or HiPower which are completely different from a an old Colt Hammerless or a CZ50 in 32 or Tokarev.

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    The P64 looks like a good choice, but only if you tune up the trigger pull a little. Wolf has a good spring kit that lightens the trigger pull considerably, and you can make it a lot more user-friendly with some careful polishing of the trigger mating surfaces with a Dremel and a Cratex wheel. Just don't change any angles or sear mating surfaces - do a mirror-polish only. Mine responded very well to that treatment. It's got a 1st.-round double action capability, then single action for the rest of the magazine.

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    No CCW here (New Jersey). I have a 1943 Walther made P-38 I have fired tight groups out of, I wouldn't hesitate to depend on it. The P-38 had a long enough production run that replacement parts are easy to obtain

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    I have a number of older pistols, civilian and military. When your life or your family is at stake, you want modern, safe, and effective pieces. You don't want to suddenly need a replacement part if the time comes. I had a very nice P38 self destruct once. Lug on locking block sheared and in turn tore open the slide.

    Relics are just that.

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    i some times carry a yugo 57 in 7.62x25, i don,t feel under gunned with it.
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    Just as an add in to the thread, some times many modern firearms crap the bed and leave their owner only holding their own stick!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFL View Post
    Just as an add in to the thread, some times many modern firearms crap the bed and leave their owner only holding their own stick!
    Yea .... sometimes. But many times surplus aren't meant to be carried loaded, aren't meant to be shot a lot, have poor safeties, are just too large and too heavy for the caliber and amount of ammo.

    Could you imagine practicing weekly with your 80 year old handgun? I mean, I bought a G43X and in a month i have almost 1000 rounds. That's one month in 12. Could most surplus gun do that? Some yes, but most of those are modern surplus like Sig 228. Could, would you do that with an old Colt vest pocket? Or pocket hammerless? How about a Tokarev or Makarov? Everyone claims that those guns are tough but has anyone actually put one through it paces? Militaries that issued them didn't actually shoot them all that much. Take one every week to a class or competition!

    Just as an add.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastbank View Post
    i some times carry a yugo 57 in 7.62x25, i don,t feel under gunned with it.
    It's not the "feel"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    Yea .... sometimes. But many times surplus aren't meant to be carried loaded, aren't meant to be shot a lot, have poor safeties, are just too large and too heavy for the caliber and amount of ammo.

    Could you imagine practicing weekly with your 80 year old handgun? I mean, I bought a G43X and in a month i have almost 1000 rounds. That's one month in 12. Could most surplus gun do that? Some yes, but most of those are modern surplus like Sig 228. Could, would you do that with an old Colt vest pocket? Or pocket hammerless? How about a Tokarev or Makarov? Everyone claims that those guns are tough but has anyone actually put one through it paces? Militaries that issued them didn't actually shoot them all that much. Take one every week to a class or competition!

    Just as an add.....

    Just as an add, I would rather have a milsurp handgun than a sharpened stick or a rock!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFL View Post
    I would rather have a milsurp handgun than a sharpened stick or a rock!
    Yes but that shouldn't be the standard. I'd rather have an atlatl then a pointy stick but it's just one notch above a pointy stick and not something I'd judge a carry gun by. Same for muskets. Better than a stick but not something that would be part of the consideration

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    Yes but that shouldn't be the standard. I'd rather have an atlatl then a pointy stick but it's just one notch above a pointy stick and not something I'd judge a carry gun by. Same for muskets. Better than a stick but not something that would be part of the consideration

    You are definitely missing the point of the OP's post and are missing his point of it! That is on you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFL View Post
    You are definitely missing the point of the OP's post and are missing his point of it! That is on you!
    What I'm reading is those old guns have merit. I disagree. Especially today when a solid used modern gun costs as much if not less than one of those old guns

    What does a Makarov sell for?

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    it,s all in the eyes of the beholder, if i get into a hot fire fight i know the only thing that will melt is the grips on my pistol.

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    I carry a Romanian MD-74 every day. It is what I had that best suited me when I started carrying. Weighs in at 18oz empty. I still carry it every day. I do lament that carrying it for the last couple years did destroy the beautiful bluing that it had on the slide. I tried a kydex holster, and there was a little movement from poor fit that damaged the finish. I haven’t been a fan of plastic fantastic, but when I decide to change carry pistols I will choose a modern plastic framed pistol.
    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."- Ronald Reagan

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    Still carry a Bulgarian Makarov. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger, fits my hand like a glove, and I hit what I'm shooting at. It's also a piece of cake to take down and maintain.

    Back fifteen years ago, I took a combat handgun course taught by a retired regional SWAT commander. Several hours and a couple hundred rounds later, my "Craparov" (as termed by the instructor early in the class) outshot the five other "modern" handguns in the group, the only pistol to not have a FTF or jam the entire day. After the range sessions in our group debrief, the officer apologized for his condescending attitude toward my antique handgun.

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    I collect millsurps but my carry weapon is a Taurus Model 85 Airweight. Why? Well, if I am in a social engagement, the first thing Mr Policeman will do is relieve me of my weapon. If I carried a more exotic pistol I KNOW it would "mysteriously disappear" from the evidence locker. A Taurus is a fine robust revolver and is cheap enough to replace. Not enough rounds? 1 I carry a speed loader. 2 I aim..

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    Depends on what I feel like grabbing on a given day. My carry guns include:

    CZ82 9x18 Mak
    Bulgarian Makarov
    Star Model BM 9mm
    Colt Model 1903 .32
    J.P Sauer Model 1913 .32
    FEG R-61 .380
    FEG PA-63 .32
    Beretta M1934 .380
    Zastava M88A 9mm

    My stock of modern carry arms (small size for most of the year) include:

    Kahr CW9
    Ruger LC9S
    S&W M&P Shield 9mm
    Walther PPK/S .380
    Kimber Micro 9
    Rock Island Baby Rock 1911A .380
    Beretta Cheetah 85 .380

    If it's colder weather and I can get away with carrying a larger gun under bulkier clothing:

    Colt M1911A1 Mk. IV Series 80
    Beretta 92S
    CZ P10C 9mm
    S&W Model 4006 .40
    CZ 75B

    It all depends on what I feel like grabbing as I head out the door. I make sure I get range time with each of my regular carry guns. When I'm spending a day at a friend's range, I'll carry one to the firing line, run through a magazine, change mags and run through a second, then put that pistol down and draw the one that I'm carrying IWB, which then gets emptied, reloaded and emptied again. That way I stay familiar with each gun.

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    I had to chime in. I have several choices but I am most comfortable carrying my Makarov. It is the right size and hits what I point it at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    Yes but that shouldn't be the standard. I'd rather have an atlatl then a pointy stick but it's just one notch above a pointy stick and not something I'd judge a carry gun by. Same for muskets. Better than a stick but not something that would be part of the consideration
    Uuhh..an atlatl is a pointed stick ( and thrower ).

    I build them... And the pointed sticks too...
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    There was a time, that I carried either a Radom manufactured VIS 35 9mm or a 1910 Mauser 7.65 as back ups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundguy View Post
    Uuhh..an atlatl is a pointed stick ( and thrower ).

    I build them... And the pointed sticks too...
    Yes but as a thrower it's better than just a pointy stick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clifden View Post
    Still carry a Bulgarian Makarov. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger, fits my hand like a glove, and I hit what I'm shooting at. It's also a piece of cake to take down and maintain.

    Back fifteen years ago, I took a combat handgun course taught by a retired regional SWAT commander. Several hours and a couple hundred rounds later, my "Craparov" (as termed by the instructor early in the class) outshot the five other "modern" handguns in the group, the only pistol to not have a FTF or jam the entire day. After the range sessions in our group debrief, the officer apologized for his condescending attitude toward my antique handgun.
    Back this summer I took several handgun courses, 10 people per course, and surprisingly no one had a jam. Accuracy depended on the user but not one jam in any class. Also no hobby grade handguns.

  34. #33
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    Well 4 of my ankle guns currently are; Astra .380 constable, a Hungarian PA63 that I re-barreled in .380, and a CZ52 (Crvena Zastava, Yugoslavia) in .32 ACP. On of my favorites though is a Smith and Wesson Victory model chambered in 38S&W that was a pilots pistol, as it has a 1.5 inch barrel.
    My open and ccw's are a Zastava M88A 9mm, Star PD 45 ACP, Star BM 9mm, and FN Hi-power. (my other carries are on your list of things we all carry, so to speak). If my job here in Columbus Ohio sends me to an area known as "The Bottoms" I open carry a Ruger SuperRed Hawk Alaskan with a 2" barrel in 454 Casull, it's completely over the top but the intimidation factor keeps people polite (I keep 45 long colts in it). And my kitchen spice cabinet has my defense pistol, a colt police positive in 38 special (pic below) in case someone crashes in while I'm making dinner in the kitchen! Click image for larger version. 

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    “ Gentlemen, we may not make History tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the Geography”

    General Herbert Plumer before detonation of 450 tons of explosive – Messines Ridge, June 1917.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    Yes but as a thrower it's better than just a pointy stick.
    Just like the adult undergarment..that statement very much depends!

    Crossbow? Hand to an untrained peasant, and he can fire it with some accuracy.
    Longbow? Takes years to master to competence, plus not just anyone can pull it wield one.
    Atlatl? Ok..maybe not years, but you darn sure can't hand one to somebody and have them put that dart where it needs to go, as hard as it needs to go. Its also not a good close range weapon. If someone is charging me with a knife.. I'm using the pointed stick and maybe try for a backswing using the thrower, if its a long thrower, some aren't, and many are sufficiently delicate that the thrower is a one and done attack.. Same with the darts.. They wont hold up to any melee.. They are a possible 1 shot pokey.

    I'd take a good spear or quarter staff with a moderately sharp end any day over an atlatl in a pointy stick fight.

    I go to our local primitive day festivals and help at the atlatl range... 99% of the people that walk off the street can't stick a dart into the open end of a hay roll 20' away with 3 shots. If it does hit, it doesn't stick.maybe in 8-12 hours you get 1 person that can score a good hit a couple times, and maybe one more that makes 1/3 on a luck shot and gets a stick.

    This isn't lord of the rings where the elves are wielding arrows by hand and killing Orcs by swatting them with their bows.. That's fantasy!

    Just curious... You aren't related to oldstuffer are you?
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    Attachment 3528301 I didn't make these left handed holsters for my pocket hammerless pistols just to lay around and not be used. I typically carry them in the colder months where I can still conceal them in a jacket or coat. I typically carry the .380 pocket hammerless when I know it will stay covered up, but if I know it will be seen on my waist by family and friends, I go with the .32 pocket hammerless since it is on better condition. To the person above that says to not carry them with one in the chamber, I personally beg to differ. The all types (1-5) have multiple safties and the type 4 and type 5 pocket hammerless pistols have a magazine disconnect to make it even safer, and the safeties seem to be comparable to the safeties one would encounter when carrying a 1911 design pistol. The biggest problem these pocket pistols have is the lack of knock down power, which can be an issue with many old firearms. Having said that though, I rarely carry an old gun and my EDC is an XDS 3.3 9mm (yeah, many say they are garbage, but mine hasn't given me a moment's problem over the thousands of rounds I've put through it). The pocket hammerless pistols are certainly not better than anything new on the market, but my modern carry gun looks out of place when I wear 1940s period clothing, so I see it is as a great reason to use some fantastic handguns for carry that normally sit in the safe.
    Last edited by TaylorRatliff95; 11-13-2019 at 08:16 PM.

  37. #36
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    Years ago before we had concealed carry and I thought I really needed something I would carry a .25 Raven with an empty chamber. Never needed it and certainly glad I never needed it in a hurry.
    Also an old hammerless Iver Johnson revolver in 38 S&W. At least it was full loaded.
    Gary

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    Early on after I got my concealed carry permit I often carried an Polish P-83, and then a CZ-82 for a while. That mid-size spot is usually filled with a Remington R-51, since I was lucky enough to get one that's reliable.

    I have on occasion carried a 1911 as well (RIA milspec or Colt Series 70), though my full-size go-to for semi-autos now is either a SIG P227 Carry or a SAR K2 .45.

    When I need to go extra small, my go-to is a Beretta Tomcat .32.

    Lately my go-tos have been revolvers more and more, Ruger LCR .357 for concealed, or Redhawk .44 for open carry, especially as a backup when deer hunting.

    I have quite a few other surplus choices in 9 Mak, .32, .380, 9mm, or .45 but most haven't been through enough testing with defensive loads for me to want to trust them for carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY50/70 View Post
    Years ago before we had concealed carry and I thought I really needed something I would carry a .25 Raven with an empty chamber. Never needed it and certainly glad I never needed it in a hurry.
    Also an old hammerless Iver Johnson revolver in 38 S&W. At least it was full loaded.
    Gary
    Ahh.. The 25 raven. The gun that made the lorcin in .380/9 look reliable...
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  40. #39
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    My great friend and gun store owner who helped me start my military gun collection, Zane Wilson, was murdered over a 25 Raven. Made news all across the east coast until the killers were caught.
    “ Gentlemen, we may not make History tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the Geography”

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    I used to carry a CZ52 in 7.62x25 when I first got my CCW when I was 21 in 06'. All I had was surplus ammo and that stuff is HOT! steel core and FMJ. Man I'm glad I never needed it, or at least in a crowded area!!!. What ammunition do you use?
    “ Gentlemen, we may not make History tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the Geography”

    General Herbert Plumer before detonation of 450 tons of explosive – Messines Ridge, June 1917.

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    When I carry it is a 5 screw "pre-model 10" K frame S&W in .38 SPL with 2" barrel with 158 grain RN lead bullets.

  43. #42
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    Mr Hi Cap MAk and "Dillinger" the 1911 made 03 colt are my favorites. The 03 colt is in .32 but is far more accurate than the mak at 25 yrds in my shaky hands.

  44. #43

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    I have occasionally carried my wife's grandfather's Savage 1907 in .380. He bought it for a drive across West Texas after being released from the Army when he got back from France in WW I. I'm told he had it strapped to the floor mounted stick shift. (Those were the days!) My FIL gave it to me about 15 yrs ago.

    My "go to" gun is my Browning HiPower that I bought new in flight school in 1978, Carried it in my flight vest and combat until I left the service in 2007.

    My CC gun these days is a 9mm Honor Defense...yeah, outside is plastic, but it has never FTE or FTF even when dirty and ~3500 rounds through it. Assembled and tested by Vets. I carry a back up gun NAA .22 Mag.

  45. #44
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    1

    Default

    I carry a serious gun virtually all the time. Once, and only once, though, I did carry my C96 Mauser during a quick errand when I was just picking someone up and not planning to get out of the car. I know that I took a risk, but I wanted to be able to say that I had carried it. I wondered at the time when the last time one was used in my area in self-defense. Fortunately I didn't have to use it. I very much doubt that I'll do that again, but it was fun.

    Griff

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  46. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Grove city Ohio
    Posts
    284

    Default

    When I was in my late 20's I kept my Erfurt 1916 dated Luger in the car. Highly accurate and never once failed me. It's now safely in my house and only loaded when at the range.
    “ Gentlemen, we may not make History tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the Geography”

    General Herbert Plumer before detonation of 450 tons of explosive – Messines Ridge, June 1917.

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