Good find ....what did I find?....UPDATED 6-15-20 VZ 52/57 30 rd AK mag.
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Thread: Good find ....what did I find?....UPDATED 6-15-20 VZ 52/57 30 rd AK mag.

  1. #1
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    wink2 Good find ....what did I find?....UPDATED 6-15-20 VZ 52/57 30 rd AK mag.

    Well..back at it.....I am always looking for odd ball stuff.............


    **** Czech Vz 52 Police Carbine ****....(pictures of another in thread)....


    ...Video of this shooting...(not mine, another)....from 2014,..They call this a "Police Carbine"



    See my last post...this is 7.62x39.....Sorry, was not trying to mislead anyone.


    Note ...the sling is not in the way....


    LINK....
    https://youtu.be/SW_m8tnwxxk


    Link....
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_m...ature=youtu.be



    Anyhow, I picked this up... more surprised as I look it over lot of stampings on it, Shoots 7.62 x 39 ...shoots like a champ really nice shooting I only had ten rounds of this open, I have two crates of that stuff ....but I don't want to open them to shoot off a few rounds,...trying to figure out how to take it apart, the one bolt is really snug, maybe a cup of coffee will help me.

    Any ideas of what this is I think it is a... No Import stamp... Czech VZ 52 butt plate on it opens up, no cleaning kit...DARN ! ....but not like the pictures I seen of them ?

    WHOOPS...found the sling in the added picture...

    So....either Bubba is getting better, going to school taking metal shop classes....or ....did I find something?...Nope ...I did find something


    Really heavy with the metal on the barrel, but shoots nice. dead on sites at 50 yds. Anyhow.....it shall hang on the wall in the gun room.


    If you want more picture ask...or if you know how to take this apart tell me....I think I need to remove that screw under the front of the mag. well...it is really tight...I mean tight.
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    Last edited by Judi and her Mosins; 06-15-2020 at 05:28 PM.

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    I've heard them called CZ-52 Police Carbines before, no idea if its a actual Czech used firearm or some importers creation though.

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    I have never seen one of them before.

    But I would like to have two of them.

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    ^^^^This^^^^ plus a few sardine cans of that ammo to 'test'. Good catch!

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    Default more pictures as requested

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Lord View Post
    I've heard them called CZ-52 Police Carbines before, no idea if its a actual Czech used firearm or some importers creation though.
    ...That is what I was told...Police Carbine

    ...the sling that came with it...

    ....No import stamps on it...
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    Last edited by Judi and her Mosins; 11-29-2019 at 06:26 PM.

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    It almost looks like a PPSH and a SKS got it on and this popped out......

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    Looks like some serious fabrication work on the front end of this one.
    I still have a couple of these and this looks like a good project for
    one of these.

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    pictures of the magazines....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails SAM_5669.jpg  


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    Only thing I could find was VZ52's converted into these. The ones I saw were converted to work with 7.62x39 and could accept AK mags/drums. It looks very neat. I'd like one, even if it wasn't original--it looks original.
    Mosin Fanboy

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    I don't know what it is Judi, but I like it alot!
    "The only real power comes out of a long rifle."- Joseph Stalin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snayperskaya View Post
    It almost looks like a PPSH and a SKS got it on and this popped out......

    I was thinking around the same thing. It is very interesting though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Lord View Post
    I've heard them called CZ-52 Police Carbines before, no idea if its a actual Czech used firearm or some importers creation though.

    Nope Real... ..here is another ,....same / same...different serial numbers....everything else looks the same..

    ....Even the red star on the stock are the same..

    ......cept I have 7.62x45....hold on let me try an ak drum in this.

    Link...

    http://gunlab.net/wp-content/uploads...DSC_3055cs.jpg


    What google search showed....pictures of the other one...

    Link....

    https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...g&action=click


    Link....

    https://www.forgottenweapons.com/tag/czechoslovakia/


    .
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    Last edited by Judi and her Mosins; 11-24-2019 at 02:25 AM.

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    That's a new one for me!! Awesome find!

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    Since none of us are quite sure what you stumbled across, can you tell us where on earth you stumbled across it?
    King Eight Eggs

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    I personally dont known about similar weapons used by police, the star marking speaks for Yugo refurbishment, it could be a refurbishment to PPSch standarts on Vz.52 basis. The front part serial is different, barell has different serial, buttstock was reserialed. b.r.Andy

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    Studying the ergonomics.

    This gun was made for close combat and/or crowd control. Hence, Police Carbine?

    The metal shroud suggests that the builders really wanted the gun to hold up if needed to be used as a club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    Studying the ergonomics.

    This gun was made for close combat and/or crowd control. Hence, Police Carbine?

    The metal shroud suggests that the builders really wanted the gun to hold up if needed to be used as a club
    .
    I figure the primary purpose of that shroud is to protect the sleeve (piston) around the barrel that is part of the gas system, and as long as they were at it, it would seem reasonable to extend it as a handguard. There is not a lot of space on the stock ahead of the magazine to grab onto.

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    Just weighted the gun...10 lbs 4 oz. .... It is very heavy but recoils very light. ....and VERY Loud..sure the fireball at night is bright too.
    Last edited by Judi and her Mosins; 11-24-2019 at 09:32 AM.

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    Dammit Martin, you left me no choice! I had to research this carbine history further!
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wVuvnWd9X3k
    King Eight Eggs

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    Seen several similar but with a Suomi shroud and a bedliner coated stock. OP's looks like the real deal.

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    This wouldn't be anything used by Czech Police, they did not use "infantry" design firearms at that point any longer since WWII days. Also Czechs have a proud history as Warsaw pact non-conformist when it came to firearms design so they would hardly tried to mimic PPSH-41.

    Given the very poor position of the front sling loop, so close to the muzzle end that the leather sling loop will end up being shot off and elimination of practical fore end for proper aim, it points to old "commercial" (mom & pop) creation. The markings seem to point to it as well (red star logo is hand made, not die stamped)

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyB View Post
    I personally dont known about similar weapons used by police, the star marking speaks for Yugo refurbishment, it could be a refurbishment to PPSch standarts on Vz.52 basis. The front part serial is different, barell has different serial, buttstock was reserialed. b.r.Andy
    READ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by nigell View Post
    This wouldn't be anything used by Czech Police, they did not use "infantry" design firearms at that point any longer since WWII days. Also Czechs have a proud history as Warsaw pact non-conformist when it came to firearms design so they would hardly tried to mimic PPSH-41.


    Given the very poor position of the front sling loop, so close to the muzzle end that the leather sling loop will end up being shot off and elimination of practical fore end for proper aim, it points to old "commercial" (mom & pop) creation. The markings seem to point to it as well (red star logo is hand made, not die stamped)

    I think the above post made point on the red star being Yugo refub....especially since he is the country (Czech) and many knowledgeable post...I have to go with his point. Especially since this is on many other weapons.


    Can you provide some links to prove the Czech police did not use "infantry design" weapons....Yes the Czech were proud,.But East Bloc did what it was told, and were very poor..hand downs are the norm. ..but they also did as the Boss said. Fix to look like....they fix. ....Also...for crowd control....don't think aiming was the important thing.....I shot this with the sling on...barrel ends inside the shourd, has no effect on the sling.

    .

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    One way to deal with the missing handguard issue on many of these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    Studying the ergonomics.

    This gun was made for close combat and/or crowd control. Hence, Police Carbine?

    The metal shroud suggests that the builders really wanted the gun to hold up if needed to be used as a club.

    Martin, I just followed your tip, when the sling is wrapped around your wrist or forearm...this can be used very much like a baton, or to club someone with, seems to have more control in close quarters ...least from my Marine Corp training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judi and her Mosins View Post

    I think the above post made point on the red star being Yugo refub....especially since he is the country (Czech) and many knowledgeable post...I have to go with his point. Especially since this is on many other weapons.


    Can you provide some links to prove the Czech police did not use "infantry design" weapons....Yes the Czech were proud,.But East Bloc did what it was told, and were very poor..hand downs are the norm. ..but they also did as the Boss said. Fix to look like....they fix. ....Also...for crowd control....don't think aiming was the important thing.....I shot this with the sling on...barrel ends inside the shourd, has no effect on the sling.

    .
    Red star certainly isn't Yugo refurb mark "1.TRZ" is. Many Warsaw Pact countries use commi stars as proof marks though. A prominent hand carved and painted in stars weren't used by any country as refurb mark.

    Before WWII, Czech Police used Mauser action Vz24's, VZz33s and so on. They were bought directly from the arms producer on private contracts bu there exactly as the military received them minus E-lion acceptance marks which were military markings. Right after the war (1940s), there was limited re-armament for the civilian police forces with VZ-24N. These were provided to SNB (Coprs for National Security). The regular police (Verejna Bezpecnost or VB) were issues pistols and billy clubs. When stuff really hit the fan, sub guns VZ26, VZ61 came out.

    Your assertions on small arms use in Czech is completely wrong. Small arms were domestic production and design. There there no commie hand me downs after the arms industries recovered immediately following the war.

    What I was saying is that the commie era slings have long leather loop with buckle at the bottom. With the sling attachment near the muzzle, the leather sling loop has great likeliness of ending up in front of the muzzle and you shoot your sling off -> not a serious design. Not to mention with the sling hoop being at the muzzle it means carrying it on your shoulder will basically have the butt of the rifle dragging on the ground. Again, not a serious ergonomic design.
    Last edited by nigell; 11-24-2019 at 11:20 AM.

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    I have never seen one of these Vz52 modified firearms.
    Not sure it would be practical as a urban close quarters weapon.
    If it was a shorter barrel would be the norm., and perhaps a lighter weight.

    But certainly a very interesting weapon.

    You should be able to find a Vz52 cleaning kit for the buttstock storage area.
    Try Liberty Tree Collectors.

    I own a Vz52 and 58 and a 52 pistol.
    I like them all and they are accurate.
    Last edited by AKBLUE; 11-25-2019 at 01:24 PM.

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    Well,...Looking at that red star..in the picture of the one I have and another on the net...seems both are the same type, up close it does not appear top be hand craved, which is the same red ink/dye on each of the guns....think in the late 1950's ....much was going on behind the iron curtain...we still won't know and never will....To out right claim mom and pop made in the garage, come on. I am looking at it, this was put on many years ago not by hand, bad marking, but others are the same size and type red ink...Mom & Pop made this...I have much work for them.


    Again. I disagree on the sling placement, sure would have been better....but has not effect on the sling, no loop or leather is jumping in front of the muzzle, not happening. The sling is Czech, which might have came with the guns ?...who knows,... I don't,... you don't ...

    But then again I think, Your assertions on small arms use in Czech is completely wrong....as to history and use of weapons. As for commie hand me downs and tow the line...7.62x39 came to be, as did planes, radio, radar, tanks, arty...it was all ran by the Big Boss in Moscow...for approval.



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    Never seen one before, the value of this would be very controversial. Thanks for sharing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judi and her Mosins View Post
    Just weighted the gun...10 lbs 4 oz. .... It is very heavy but recoils very light. ....
    Amazing find Judi. I've never seen anything like it. No crown, appears to have been cut off and blued. My eyes are not what they used to be... It's a remarkable weapon, certainly no Bubba did this work. It appears it was designed to dish it out and take "it" as well. Congratulations on your new acquisition! - - - Dan

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    Very cool gun Judi but I'm with Nigell on this one. So many things that either don't look right or don't make sense at all
    Crudely welded sling loop right by the muzzle, weird useless "finger grooves" by the end of the stock, long and extremely heavy shroud just to name few
    The only reason to make a shroud that long is if builders don't want to go SBR route. I see it being done a lot to ppsh kits
    I highly doubt that it is something that was purposely created for police use much less for military.
    BTW what caliber is it in?
    ____________________________________

    If it's Made in Russia and original, I'll buy it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlin View Post
    Very cool gun Judi but I'm with Nigell on this one. So many things that either don't look right or don't make sense at all
    Crudely welded sling loop right by the muzzle, weird useless "finger grooves" by the end of the stock, long and extremely heavy shroud just to name few
    The only reason to make a shroud that long is if builders don't want to go SBR route. I see it being done a lot to ppsh kits
    I highly doubt that it is something that was purposely created for police use much less for military.
    BTW what caliber is it in?


    it is 7.62 x 45....

    ...many others including myself think this is factory built, refub, failed proto-type ? ...in the east bloc ? ...by who, ? why ???? Please, please tell me... But this place is for exchange of information and ideas of how this gun came to be that is why I posted this thread...all information and op's are welcome...and needed ! ....Thank you for your input.


    ...I agree the sling loop is a bad weld, look at the picture of the one from the internet...the sling loop in inlayed in the shroud ...with a bad weld....the same star, red ink...all the same .Weird finger grooves actually worked when holding and shooting, least for me they did.

    ...If ...you find out which ...bubba,...mom & pop,..or importer built this...I want another

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    finger grooves are because it is a cut down vz52 stock

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    It's most likely a fantasy piece with a made up "police carbine" name. There is no evidence of these existing anywhere outside of a couple of collectors in the US, if you search for them gunlab is the only reference that comes up

    Gunlab themselves have this to say about it "I donít know if it is or not a police carbine or just something someone made up"
    http://gunlab.net/shooting-the-czech...olice-carbine/

    Other links reference gunlab, here is one (posted 1 day after the gunlab post), and a quote on the page is:
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...olice-carbine/

    "According to Chuck* of GunLab, in the comments:

    ďI am working on the parts and will know a cost soon.Ē

    I canít help but think a Vz. 52 converted in this way would be a pretty good seller!"

    Just because someone posted something on the internet claiming it's real doesn't make it so.

    The most likely explanation is someone did a few one these as a project, maybe they had a bunch of VZ52 rifles that they couldn't sell and decided to create these as fantasy pieces, stamp a red star on the stock to make it "soviet"
    The fake SVT-40 carbines created for the above mentioned reason come to mind, to this day many people swear that they are real....the other example that comes to mind are the Hungarian Togagypt/Firebird pistols with the fantasy soviet crest. Also done in order to make them more "soviet" and sell extra inventory that was sitting around without a buyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judi and her Mosins View Post
    Nope Real... ..here is another ,....same / same...different serial numbers....everything else looks the same.
    Your claim of it being real is based on a link to gunlab, where the author says this about it, direct quote:

    "I donít know if it is or not a police carbine or just something someone made up"

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    Click and expand the star on the stock. Looks like a pantograph end-mill was utilized, does it not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimja View Post
    It's most likely a fantasy piece with a made up "police carbine" name. There is no evidence of these existing anywhere outside of a couple of collectors in the US, if you search for them gunlab is the only reference that comes up

    Gunlab themselves have this to say about it "I don’t know if it is or not a police carbine or just something someone made up"
    http://gunlab.net/shooting-the-czech...olice-carbine/

    Other links reference gunlab, here is one (posted 1 day after the gunlab post), and a quote on the page is:
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...olice-carbine/

    "According to Chuck* of GunLab, in the comments:

    “I am working on the parts and will know a cost soon.”

    I can’t help but think a Vz. 52 converted in this way would be a pretty good seller!"

    Just because someone posted something on the internet claiming it's real doesn't make it so.

    The most likely explanation is someone did a few one these as a project, maybe they had a bunch of VZ52 rifles that they couldn't sell and decided to create these as fantasy pieces, stamp a red star on the stock to make it "soviet"
    The fake SVT-40 carbines created for the above mentioned reason come to mind, to this day many people swear that they are real....the other example that comes to mind are the Hungarian Togagypt/Firebird pistols with the fantasy soviet crest. Also done in order to make them more "soviet" and sell extra inventory that was sitting around without a buyer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimja View Post
    Your claim of it being real is based on a link to gunlab, where the author says this about it, direct quote:

    "I don’t know if it is or not a police carbine or just something someone made up"


    Once again...as gun labs says...they don't know if it is or not .....


    Chucks Comments...are just comments...like everyone here,

    orygunKEO Post seven...mentioned ...he was thinking of making one....


    ...and once again...another opinion....likely explanation is someone did a few one these as a project, maybe they had a bunch of VZ52 rifles that they couldn't sell and decided to create these as fantasy pieces, stamp a red star on the stock to make it "soviet"


    ....by saying this was real......I was pointing out this was a not a one and done gun...another exist...maybe others?...someone post pictures if they have ...Where did they come from...they were done many years ago, I can say that from looking at the wear and age of this one...


    ......Bottom line is....We do not know, except for as you say, and correctly so....
    these existing anywhere outside of a couple of collectors in the US. I am one of them


    I just want to know where , how this came to be I am happy with it, especially now knowing only very few of these are made....even by bubba...with the PHD...or..... Comrade had a good idea...till the higher Comrade did not like it ?...Who knows...Maybe someone did make a batch..where are the others beside the two knowen ?


    I am just trying to find out more about this gun...I like it...it is a real looker in my East Bloc collection...


    ...I appreciate all the input and help you guys are offering, I am going to search the net for old pictures.....late 1950's era....east bloc police action news reels.

    .

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    Miss Judi you found yourself a really nice piece. I come here to learn and see unique firearms. I appreciate you posting. It looks well made, well thought out, and professionally built. Talk about an effective close quarters firearm. This is it. No matter where it came from, it certainly isn't something everyone else has in their collection. Great score. Congrats

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    Quote Originally Posted by 13 Colony Patriot View Post
    Miss Judi you found yourself a really nice piece. I come here to learn and see unique firearms. I appreciate you posting. It looks well made, well thought out, and professionally built. Talk about an effective close quarters firearm. This is it. No matter where it came from, it certainly isn't something everyone else has in their collection. Great score. Congrats

    Thank you ....

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    Ok let me make a long post on this carbine because there. Evidence both historical and physical doesn't add up to it being anything other than well done civilian conversion done some time ago. Quality is very good so it was likely done by "commercial" type entity which we know there have been plenty of over the years: Bannerman, Ohio Ordnance, Inter-Ordnance, Cole's Distributing and countless of other smaller mom&pop operations. All that dabbled in making undesirable surplus into desirable product.

    From historical pointy of view there is the following problem:
    1) No historical records of such variant exists. The notion that "we will never know what happened behind the iron curtain in the 1950s" is false and only stems from Commie secrecy during 1950s. Communists documented everything, but kept it secret while in power. Today all those records are available, especially when it comes to Czech Republic where the transition after the wall fell was completely non-violent. Books are available from the Czech arms manufacturers that cover the development of VZ-54, VZ-52, VZ-52/57, VZ-58 and so on. No "police issue" PPSh-esque VZ-52 is mentioned. The VZ-54 sniper rifle development was particularly politically charged and all that is explained in the literature available.


    2) Big Red Commie Star - Czechs overall were never sold on communism. They were forced into it when the major Allied nations divided Europe among themselves as spheres of influence. So official used of Commie insignia was basically done "at the minimum legal requirement". As matter of fact from 1948-1960 Czechosolvakia kept on using their pre-war Coat of Arms and designation "Czechoslovak Republic" having no communist references at all. It wasn't until 1960 that they added "Socialist" to "Czechoslovak Socialist Republic" and added rather tiny Commie star above the Bohemian Rampant lion in the Cost of Arms to designate themselves as communist. Furthermore, their military acceptance marks remained non-commie changing from the "rampant lion" to "crossed swords". So it holds no merit to suggest all the sudden a "police issues" VZ52 carbine would all the sudden feature a huge Soviet star as acceptance mark.


    From physical analysis point of where there are several problems:
    A) Sling hoop position - as already explained it's in very bad ergonomic position. High likely hood of inadvertently shoot your sling off and absolutely poor position for carry in rifle on your shoulder.

    B) Big Red Star - Does not appear to be stamped by a die, a factory process. Proportions of each point is different so it was manually cut process.

    C) Front Site Design - Unprotected, tall and skinny design. Not a serious design for military or police when gear is abused

    D) Fore end Design - Majority of the functional fore-end was cut off leaving only small stub for the non shooting hand to stabilize the gun and it's right in frond of a curve mag. Poor design for practical and ergonomic shooting in "combat" situation.

    E) Barrel Shroud Design - The barrel shroud actually leaves the critical portion of the short stroke system completely open to the elements, dirt, and debris. The gas system consists of stroking cylinder that goes around the barrel. Pour some sand on top of the shroud where the cylinder and you will find your firearm permanently out of action.

    F) Magazine well refiled cuts - Both of these guns pictured have the stock inletted for use of AK-47 drum magazines - this is clear give-away for civilian conversion. Czech never developed a drum magazine for 7.62x45mm so there is no reason for the stock to be inleted for one. Furthermore, no civilian or military force within Czech Republic adopted the AK weapon system so even AK drum magazines would be non existent.

    G) MixMaster of Parts - It appear every single major component bears a different original serial number. If this was a factory gun or "sanctioned conversion" all the serial numbers would match. Even the barrel and received are difference serial number and those aren't easy to separate as they are pressed in together. This clearly points to "bin of parts" creation.


    I would bet if the actual barrel length was measured, it will conveniently measure at just above 16". Not something anybody but US owners care about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nigell View Post
    Evidence both historical and physical doesn't add up to it being anything other than well done civilian conversion done some time ago. Quality is very good so it was likely done by "commercial" type entity which we know there have been plenty of over the years: Bannerman, Ohio Ordnance, Inter-Ordnance, Cole's Distributing and countless of other smaller mom&pop operations. All that dabbled in making undesirable surplus into desirable product.
    Exactly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judi and her Mosins View Post

    ....by saying this was real......I was pointing out this was a not a one and done gun...another exist...maybe others?
    ...someone post pictures if they have ...Where did they come from...they were done many years ago, I can say that from looking at the wear and age of this one...
    That's not how I understood it and it's a very dangerous thing to say. Is a fake PU sniper put together by an importer real? How about a fake SVT40 carbine cut down by an importer to sell rifles nobody wanted to buy? By your logic, yes, it's real. Sure, it exists, there are other examples of it.

    Sure, there are at least a couple of examples of this "police carbine". Yes, both it and a put together PU (or an SVT carbine) are "real", but at the same time neither are "real"

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    Quote Originally Posted by nigell View Post
    Ok let me make a long post on this carbine because there. Evidence both historical and physical doesn't add up to it being anything other than well done civilian conversion done some time ago. Quality is very good so it was likely done by "commercial" type entity which we know there have been plenty of over the years: Bannerman, Ohio Ordnance, Inter-Ordnance, Cole's Distributing and countless of other smaller mom&pop operations. All that dabbled in making undesirable surplus into desirable product.

    From historical pointy of view there is the following problem:
    1) No historical records of such variant exists. The notion that "we will never know what happened behind the iron curtain in the 1950s" is false and only stems from Commie secrecy during 1950s. Communists documented everything, but kept it secret while in power. Today all those records are available, especially when it comes to Czech Republic where the transition after the wall fell was completely non-violent. Books are available from the Czech arms manufacturers that cover the development of VZ-54, VZ-52, VZ-52/57, VZ-58 and so on. No "police issue" PPSh-esque VZ-52 is mentioned. The VZ-54 sniper rifle development was particularly politically charged and all that is explained in the literature available.


    2) Big Red Commie Star - Czechs overall were never sold on communism. They were forced into it when the major Allied nations divided Europe among themselves as spheres of influence. So official used of Commie insignia was basically done "at the minimum legal requirement". As matter of fact from 1948-1960 Czechosolvakia kept on using their pre-war Coat of Arms and designation "Czechoslovak Republic" having no communist references at all. It wasn't until 1960 that they added "Socialist" to "Czechoslovak Socialist Republic" and added rather tiny Commie star above the Bohemian Rampant lion in the Cost of Arms to designate themselves as communist. Furthermore, their military acceptance marks remained non-commie changing from the "rampant lion" to "crossed swords". So it holds no merit to suggest all the sudden a "police issues" VZ52 carbine would all the sudden feature a huge Soviet star as acceptance mark.


    From physical analysis point of where there are several problems:
    A) Sling hoop position - as already explained it's in very bad ergonomic position. High likely hood of inadvertently shoot your sling off and absolutely poor position for carry in rifle on your shoulder.

    B) Big Red Star - Does not appear to be stamped by a die, a factory process. Proportions of each point is different so it was manually cut process.

    C) Front Site Design - Unprotected, tall and skinny design. Not a serious design for military or police when gear is abused

    D) Fore end Design - Majority of the functional fore-end was cut off leaving only small stub for the non shooting hand to stabilize the gun and it's right in frond of a curve mag. Poor design for practical and ergonomic shooting in "combat" situation.

    E) Barrel Shroud Design - The barrel shroud actually leaves the critical portion of the short stroke system completely open to the elements, dirt, and debris. The gas system consists of stroking cylinder that goes around the barrel. Pour some sand on top of the shroud where the cylinder and you will find your firearm permanently out of action.

    F) Magazine well refiled cuts - Both of these guns pictured have the stock inletted for use of AK-47 drum magazines - this is clear give-away for civilian conversion. Czech never developed a drum magazine for 7.62x45mm so there is no reason for the stock to be inleted for one. Furthermore, no civilian or military force within Czech Republic adopted the AK weapon system so even AK drum magazines would be non existent.

    G) MixMaster of Parts - It appear every single major component bears a different original serial number. If this was a factory gun or "sanctioned conversion" all the serial numbers would match. Even the barrel and received are difference serial number and those aren't easy to separate as they are pressed in together. This clearly points to "bin of parts" creation.


    I would bet if the actual barrel length was measured, it will conveniently measure at just above 16". Not something anybody but US owners care about.

    Ok....So far we still have no proof who made this....so far only a few pictures of them...Coles...Samco...Who knows.

    I can tell you this,...from my last job....I know a tad about the east-bloc countries .....many secrets are still kept hidden, releasing only what they want. Just cause the old boss is out,...the new boss...still has little bosses entrenched...the trains keep running...ever hear that line. As far as history...who writes it...who tells them what to write...


    Get over that sling...It is in a bad spot I agree, but it will not get shot off, ...I wish you can explain how it could happen...cannot it is a inch behind the muzzle.

    The star is a poor cut I agree...however...it is the same cut and ink in the other one in the picture....


    This ...WILL not take a AK drum...or even close...I attempted it...won't fit...not even close.


    Barrel shroud design...I agree...maybe that is why these were not produced...after all...how many attempts and photo-type guns are made...before a final design...early AK's...early Early M1....or Bubba paying attention in shop class...or Coles, Century...Making good, Why no import stamp ? Who ever did it ...did a good job. I'd like another please.


    Mix Master parts...well...most mosins, AK's ,...SKS go thru refub....Who is to say maybe ..some guys in the Armory did not put a few together over some booze ?...


    Barrel length ...agree...16".....otherwise would be a SBR


    Which...brings us back to the same question...Who built it...so far we have found two others on the net, and the one I have.

    Thanks for your input and research, ...I am going to check on old news reels from any type police action from the east bloc countries....maybe this came in from a Africa, South America....third world aid type who re-worked ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimja View Post
    That's not how I understood it and it's a very dangerous thing to say. Is a fake PU sniper put together by an importer real? How about a fake SVT40 carbine cut down by an importer to sell rifles nobody wanted to buy? By your logic, yes, it's real. Sure, it exists, there are other examples of it.

    Sure, there are at least a couple of examples of this "police carbine". Yes, both it and a put together PU (or an SVT carbine) are "real", but at the same time neither are "real"

    Nobody has proved this fake ( bubba, Coles, Mom & Pop) .Why no stamping such as Samco IO etc.....nor has it been proven real, ...( third world rework, east bloc work, other)......


    All we have are opinions, thoughts, not hard checked facts as such walking into a military museum and talking with the curator,...or talking to people who would in fact have at least first, second hand information. Not doubting the Books are available from the Czech arms manufacturers ....but do books really have ALL the correct information...How much information is unk. about the SKS ...Mosin ????


    This is just a fun gun for me I really like it no matter what...We'll never know,..unless we keep looking and asking...Thanks for you input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judi and her Mosins View Post
    Ok....So far we still have no proof who made this....so far only a few pictures of them...Coles...Samco...Who knows.
    You are asking us to prove the negative: to prove that the gun didn't come like that from Czech police. Absence of evidence to the contrary isn't evidence for something to be real.

    I can tell you this,...from my last job....I know a tad about the east-bloc countries .....many secrets are still kept hidden, releasing only what they want. Just cause the old boss is out,...the new boss...still has little bosses entrenched...the trains keep running...ever hear that line. As far as history...who writes it...who tells them what to write...
    I'm sure there is some critical state secrets from commie days. Though I doubt documents for civilian police force rifles which they since decided to surplus would be one of those state secrets.


    This ...WILL not take a AK drum...or even close...I attempted it...won't fit...not even close.
    I didn't say the AK drum would fit. It wouldn't without serious machining of the action. That is the point: somebody added relief cuts for a AK drum magazine that will never fit (like the other gun). Thus this modification is totally useless for any narrative that Czechs would have done that. Guessing the same source that made the AK drums fit and work realized it takes so much work it's not worth it and stopped doing it while having the stocks already inletted for the drums.

    Barrel shroud design...I agree...maybe that is why these were not produced...after all...how many attempts and photo-type guns are made...before a final design...early AK's...early Early M1....or Bubba paying attention in shop class...or Coles, Century...Making good, Why no import stamp ? Who ever did it ...did a good job. I'd like another please.
    Import marked VZ-52s had the import mark by CIA right behind the front site base. Somebody cut the barrel short to US requirement of 16" cutting off the import mark.


    Mix Master parts...well...most mosins, AK's ,...SKS go thru refub....Who is to say maybe ..some guys in the Armory did not put a few together over some booze ?...
    Czech did not have large refurbishment programs like Soviets did. They were left with very little after WWII in terms of arms. Everything they had was built new. They also didn't fight in conflicts around the world so most of what they had collected dust in armories.

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    Nigell.....I am not tying to get into a pissing contest.....

    All I am saying...You tell me where it was made,.... It is a Czech 52 correct...Ok we all agree on that...now...what happened after ?

    Maybe this was a bring back from Grenada ?...Who knows ? ...maybe I did this in my garage ....by myself, trying to sell it on the marketplace for $500 ....

    Absence of evidence to the contrary isn't evidence for something to be real...or to be proven not real for lack of knowledge ....Sun use to rotate around the earth...remember....what is true today...is discovered the next day...such as the triangle 1 East German legend ....This works both ways....

    Like I said,....I don't know who, where, or why they did this....neither do you....we all have our own thoughts how this MIGHT have came to be....

    ....Hey, I should call this the J-18....since I cannot call it a Czech carbine, police or otherwise..I'll proclaim this as a J-18... for Judi 2018...when I purchased it ...can anyone claim otherwise ?


    Hey we agree....

    Czech did not have large refurbishment programs like Soviets did. They were left with very little after WWII in terms of arms. Everything they had was built new. They also didn't fight in conflicts around the world so most of what they had collected dust in armories.

    Correct...Much was given as aid to third world...Cuba, Africa...South America....anything in the Soviet breath...would get arms ...aid...Czech..was a big giver to get the cash from the USSR. Which might have ment they did take scraps from the USSR ...which always gave the junk away as aid...who knows. That is why they have so few ...military surplus to sell unlike Poland, Rom., etc...


    I bought this, I like it...and I want to know more about it...that's all....ok. ...debates...not so much.

    ....maybe after something solid appears, I am just looking for...information....solid, or just opinions ....not debates today.
    Last edited by Judi and her Mosins; 11-24-2019 at 06:20 PM.

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