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Help With Curious (Irish?) Marking

3K views 18 replies 5 participants last post by  DoubleD 
#1 ·
In the past week, three Gewehr 71 Mauser rifles, all with a curious marking on them, have come to my attention. This marking is either carved, or stamped, into the rifles’ stocks—one with the insignia carved on the comb of a butt stock (just above the butt plate tang), and two with the same motif stamped beside their receiver tangs (see attached photos.) The small (@1/4” diameter) marking looks like the view through a telescopic rifle sight, but with very heavy crosshairs. One of these markings is on a rifle that also has the “M” marking on it (see my article on Howth Mausers in the August 2019 issue of Man at Arms), and the other markings are on two rifles that also have their owners’ initials, or geometric symbols, carved into their stocks.

Although these three markings are on suspected Howth Mausers, I am hoping to find this same marking on a Martini-Henry/Enfield, or on a Long Lee-Metford/Enfield (or even on an SMLE) rifle—hence my posting on this forum.

Thanks so much, in advance, for any information. Ken Smith-Christmas
 
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#3 ·
Thank you John K. I seemed to remember a discussion on this in the past also. Something to do with a fixture when sights were upgraded.
 
#5 ·
Thanks so much for all of this information! I would be most interested in seeing a photo of this armourer's tool for setting sights, as I have never seen one, nor have I ever heard of one. I would deeply appreciate it if you could direct me to this previous discussion. It would be interesting to see a standard tool that was used by both German and British factory armourers, since this marking has, so far, appeared on three Gew 71s and a Martini-Henry, with more promised by members of other forums.

What I find very perplexing is this same motif carved, not stamped, into a buttstock, as on a Gew 71 that IMA recently sold (photo attached.) The "offside" of the buttstock on this rifle also has a very strange geometric figure carved into it, like the owners' initials that are evident on a number of suspected Howth Mausers in the USA.

VBW Ken
 
#9 ·
First Ken what I said, " I seemed to remember a discussion on this in the past also".

This discussion may have occurred here or elsewhere.

When I said "Something to do with a fixture when sights were upgraded": I should have started the sentence "I think it had..." My mistake. Sorry. As I recall those marks were found on either side of the fore stock adjacent to the rear sight.

As to the marks themselves pictured. The first two next to the tang on the Mauser are very similar- 6 segments but not quite the same as the Martini- 4 segments. The 4th mark on the comb of the IMA GEW 71 is very different, more punctures than impresses, but we can't se them directly to tell.

I did check the Broadarrow and there was a similar mark, the cross and circle incised on scrapped Austrailian L1A1's. I did a quick check of The Treatise and didn't find anything.

John and I are a couple of old guys-gunsmiths and we have been doing this for a while. I have moderated this board and the board over on British Militaria for 18 years, and a similar mark shown on the Martini in the post 4 above has been discussed at one time.

I have no finger tip index to all posts made on those two boards, so I can't jump up and find your info. Like I said , I checked Broadarrow and Treatise real quick.

I suggest you sit down and start working Google. Search cross in circle gun marks, or proof marks. Search the ides we have given you. Make sure to click on image below the google search window and look at those.

Use this search protocol in Google.

Copy the entire code inside the box and paste in the search window of google.

Code:
site:https://forums.gunboards.com/
After the forward slash type the word you want to search. Here is how it would look if you were searching for a Majuba Martini

Code:
site:https://forums.gunboards.com/ Majuba
Same thing for British Militaria. The Basic search protocol.

Code:
site:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/
Search BMF for Majuba Martini.

Code:
[URL="https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/"]site:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/ Majuba[/URL]
Once you use these protocols you will be surprised what pops up.

Good luck with your research, and do let us know what you find.
 
#10 ·
Dear Douglas:

Thanks ever so much for all of the recommendations. These will make searches easier. As you can see, I am very new to Gunboards.

The L1A1 decommissioning mark is especially interesting, and I will go down that path. If the "wheeled cross" is a British decommissioning mark, like the opposing broad arrows, that could indicate that the British disposed of these three German rifles.

Interestingly, when I went down to my Kriegeszimmer to try out my new .45LC chamber adapter in my Mk IV 1887 Martini today (so I could load up some red jet ammo and, like I do with Trapdoors and Peabodys, shoot it in my basement), I found the same four segmented "wheeled cross" on it, just the same as is on Master Chief's Martini. My Mk IV British Martini is also an IMA Nepalese import (two of the Gew 71s in my original query were not IMA guns), but I couldn't find the marking on any of my other five different Martinis (none of them are IMA or Nepalese guns.) It is a quandry, and I deeply appreciate everyone's time and efforts in helping me to discover what this marking may mean. All that I have been able to find so far by "googling" is the Kilkenny Cross. I do see a cross and circle on the magazine floor plates of my Chilean M95 Mausers-- but it is not the same as the "wheeled cross" on the Mausers, and the Martinis.

Again, thanks so much!

VBW Ken
 
#11 ·
The L1A1 are Australian marks , not British. It is incised circle and x mark, where as the other marks are impressed segments

Those marks on the Mauser bear no resemblance to the Marks on the Martini's they are all different. The German mark is six segments.

Why do you think your Martini's didn't come IMA? This mark has nothing to do with IMA, other than we had the good fortune to have IMA rescue these guns for our use and some of those guns have the mark.
 
#13 ·
Dear Douglas:

Again, thanks for the clarification. You are right-- the L1A1 angle is not applicable.

Actually, the two stamped "wheeled crosses" on the Gew 71s apparently were made with different stamps, but I see four segments in each of them, although the stampings appear to be non-professionally made, and are indistinct. My original take on the insignia that is on the three Gew 71s was that it is the "Kilkenny Cross", but I didn't want to influence anyone's thinking by stating this, when I put out the post. I just wanted to see if anyone else had another Gew 71 with the same motif, either stamped, or carved, into its stock, or, better yet, a Long Lee, or a Martini, with the same "Kilkenny Cross." I think that it is an Irish, not a German, marking.

The coincidence of two "wheeled crosses" on the stock combs of British-made M-Hs that ended up in Nepal is beyond interesting. I concur that it is not an "IMA" mark, but I have some other avenues of research that I will follow into this question-- it is puzzling, indeed! None of my other Martinis came from the IMA "Nepalese" hoard: one I got in 1974 (a marked RIC M-H smoothbore), one in 1977 (a possible RIC M-H short rifle that came out of Mexico), a ZAR-marked M-H carbine that I got in 2011, a "scrubbed" possible UVF M-E Belgian (?) art'y carbine that I got in 2002, and another "scrubbed" possible UVF or IrVols art'y M-E carbine that I got in 1999. If you like the story of Christian Cranmer and the Nepalese Hoard (and, yes, it is an amazing saga!), you won't believe the story of Austria's Burg Forchtenstein. You can google ICOMAM, Forchtenstein, and my last name to find it online. What a tale!

I want to thank you, and all of the Gunboards members who have been so helpful in helping me to find the answer to my question.

VBW Ken Smith-Christmas
 
#14 ·
Take another look a the German marks. A horizontal line a vertical line and diagonal line. Both of them the same scheme.






The Martini. No diagonal line.



These are two very different style marks. I will mention that the Martini Mark is quite small.

The German marks look like some sort of inspection or view marks, what they mean, who knows. Kilkenny Cross, doesn't really resemble the traditional, but might be. If you can prove that you will have the collectors jumping. That would be very interesting indeed. Let us know here what you find out.

As to the Martini. May suggest you contact Neil Apinshaw and discuss that mark with him. He has just published book on the Martini and he may have information confirm what this mark is. His information would be from a documented or verifiable source and and not two old men's memory.

I do suggest you post this over on British Militaria. While a lot of the fellows there are here, there are number of well researched collectors who are only over there. Those Gentleman are far more knowledgeable than I am.
 
#16 ·
Irish (?) Marking



Again, thank you for your observations, and for your recommendations. The prescription of the lenses in your eyeglasses is better than mine! There IS another diagonal line. I will order a copy of Mr. Apinshaw's book today, and, if I don't see any mention of the "Kilkenny Cross" in it (or any other Irish Volunteer markings), I will contact him.

So far, out of the forty, or so, suspected, or known, Howth Mausers that I have examined in the British Isles and in the USA, these three are the only ones that have this "wheeled cross" marking, either stamped, or carved, into their stocks. I will be writing a sequel to my article in Man at Arms, and I hope to solve this mystery before it goes to press-- and not leave it as an open-ended question, like I did with the "M" marking on a few Howth Guns.

Meanwhile, I certainly have time on my hands, like most of us do right now, so I can get back into the Irish MilHistBur "Witness Statements" and see if I can find any accounts that mention the "Kilkenny Cross."

The possibility of serviceable captured guns from the Rising being sent to far-flung parts of the Empire presents another intriguing research question.

I can't begin to thank you, and your fellow Gunboards forum members, enough for all the help on this!

VBW Ken
 
#15 ·
Post #5 picture shows a very common place for this kind of mark...top surface of butt ,about 1/3 distance of pull....I dont know what caused it ,but I do note ,the marks never seem to break the fibre of the wood ,as stamps usually do....I could theorize it was made by aliens ,but I wont.
 
#17 ·
I am not referring you to Neil about the Mauser cross rather Martini tool mark. I doubt you will find anything Kilkenny cross in has book. I could be wrong as I am only half way through.

If you use that search string I post above using the word Irish, you will find a number of post on Irish Marked arms. You may not find your mark. What you will find is people who are knowledgeable on the subject and my be able to help you.

Code:
site:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/ irish
Code:
site:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/ kilkenny
 
#18 ·
Dear Douglas:

As before, thanks so much. No, I wouldn't think that Mr Aspinshaw would have info on the IV's "wheeled cross" in his new book, but, in addition to this cross/circle "out of service" marking on the Nepalese guns, I would like to see what he has about UVF, and possible, IV M-Hs and M-Es. I am especially interested in the carbines that were carried by the Inniskilling Horse. Besides, I have had a lifelong interest in 'Tinis of all types-- at least dating back to 1966, when my high school pals and I went to see the movie Zulu! in Wash DC!

While the marking on the Gew 71s MAY be the "Kilkenny Cross", it does not appear to be a marking applied by the Kilkenny Bn of the IrishVols (and it was a small battalion of only 60 men in 1916.) According to what I found in the IrishMilHistBur records (just beginning to scratch the surface last night), the Kilkenny Bn only had enough handguns and "new Lee-Enfields" (SMLEs) to arm 25 men on Easter Sunday 1916, and had to bring in a "car load" of about 30 SB shotguns. The two witness statements that I read late last night indicated that the Kilkenny Bn did not follow IV HQ's directive to surrender their arms. Apparently, no arms were surrendered in Kilkenny City after the Rising, and the men of Kilkenny city apparently never had any Howth Gew 71s...

Again, thanks for all of y'all's help, and I will pursue this quandary off line.

VBW Ken
 
#19 ·
You need to visit BMF, we have a number of post in the Inniskilling Horse and a number of other Irish related groups.
 
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