Turk 7.92x57 - Page 2
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 46 to 73 of 73

Thread: Turk 7.92x57

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    Yes, over spec. Not “around 3000ish”, but 2891fps in a GEW 98 rifle.
    From German 7.9 Military Ammunition 1888-1945, Daniel W.Kent.
    Taken at 78ft...when at 15ft its closer to 2950. So yeah...3000ish...

    and even over spec ammo is still safe in gas guns...kinda destroys the narrative.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    N Mexico
    Posts
    7,248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
    Taken at 78ft...when at 15ft its closer to 2950. So yeah...3000ish...

    and even over spec ammo is still safe in gas guns...kinda destroys the narrative.
    25 meters Jeremy..US Army tests at 78 feet. I will let you do the math. Sure “over spec Ammo” is safe in gas guns. You say so ...it has to be true. Noting can harm a gas gun. Wait! G43s are already “over gassed” you say? But then can over spec ammo harm an over gassed gun. No? because you say it is “still safe“.

    The narrative is that you talk in absolutes. “Turk Ammo is safe” when you mean “A reload can be made with Turk components in some semi autos“.

    “Over spec ammo is safe in gas guns” when you will not even shoot “In Spec“ Ammo in your un modified German semi autos.

    There is going to be two camps here... Me? I shoot my 1952 Turk in bolt guns. No hassle, little worry.
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    25 meters Jeremy..US Army tests at 78 feet. I will let you do the math. Sure “over spec Ammo” is safe in gas guns. You say so ...it has to be true. Noting can harm a gas gun. Wait! G43s are already “over gassed” you say? But then can over spec ammo harm an over gassed gun. No? because you say it is “still safe“.

    The narrative is that you talk in absolutes. “Turk Ammo is safe” when you mean “A reload can be made with Turk components in some semi autos“.

    “Over spec ammo is safe in gas guns” when you will not even shoot “In Spec“ Ammo in your un modified German semi autos.

    There is going to be two camps here... Me? I shoot my 1952 Turk in bolt guns. No hassle, little worry.
    oops...ok 82ft not 78ft. So that means the 15ft vel is even higher than at 78ft.


    You are still hung up on a G43 and I can't figure out why...

    Please explain what the difference is between turk ammo and the turk components in new brass.

    Back to the G43 again...so again..you condone all G43 shooters to shoot them with no modifications? It's your statement that they aren't overgassed?

    Sure have two camps....those that understand that actual issue...and those that don't. If the turk brass wasn't brittle...we wouldn't be having this conversation.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    744

    Default

    No offense intended, but I don't know you. You might be a legitimate metallurgist who has scientifically tested Turk brass to determine it's degree of "brittleness", or you might be just some guy making assumptions. I don't know, so you'll have to excuse me for not taking your word for it. When you go against a widely accepted explanation and common knowledge, and set yourself up as having all the answers such that everyone else is wrong, you need to have an exceptional degree of evidence. You haven't convinced me. I just see a guy telling me how he's right and all the experts are wrong.

    Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. It's been interesting considering it, and thank you for your input and that photo. I remain unconvinced though. I will never run full power Turk ammo through my FN49. If I'm going to go to the effort of pulling and reloading surplus ammo, decreasing the powder charge to a more reasonable velocity for these old guns is a no-brainer, for me.

    By the way, I wouldn't dismiss the 3200fps velocity as "just a little over spec". To be honest that dismissal weakens your argument. As a long-time reloader, I know that 250fps over a full load is a substantial overload. A little scary actually. The rifle will probably hold up OK for a while, as it's likely within the safety margin, but it is very concerning, definitely not "just a little over".

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatelk View Post
    When you go against a widely accepted explanation and common knowledge... ...all the experts are wrong.
    Well the widely accepted explanation and "common knowledge" don't hold water under scrutiny.

    What "experts"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fatelk View Post

    Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. It's been interesting considering it, and thank you for your input and that photo. I remain unconvinced though. I will never run full power Turk ammo through my FN49. If I'm going to go to the effort of pulling and reloading surplus ammo, decreasing the powder charge to a more reasonable velocity for these old guns is a no-brainer, for me.

    By the way, I wouldn't dismiss the 3200fps velocity as "just a little over spec". To be honest that dismissal weakens your argument. As a long-time reloader, I know that 250fps over a full load is a substantial overload. A little scary actually. The rifle will probably hold up OK for a while, as it's likely within the safety margin, but it is very concerning, definitely not "just a little over".
    3200 is easily attainable with handloads and within spec. according to quickload. The 3200 is only about 5% above what the WW1 spec is. US M2 ball loads have this much variance as well so no real concern there either.

    Gotta look at it with facts not feelings. That gets you every time...

    You never said what you broke in your FN49

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    744

    Default

    Like I told a former co-worker one time, who thought he was the smartest guy in the room and always won every argument; sometimes when people stop talking to you it doesn't necessarily mean you've won the argument, but rather that everyone else has decided that you're so arrogant and full of it that there's no point in any further discussion.

    It's clear to me that you don't understand nearly so much as you think you do, and are arrogantly defending an indefensible position. Anyone who advocates overloading 70+ year old rifles the way you are deserves to be ignored.
    Last edited by Fatelk; 07-11-2020 at 01:20 PM.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    11,054

    Default

    Again risking several thousand dollars worth of firearm with three cent ammo - well, at least some rare parts may be available soon.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatelk View Post
    Like I told a former co-worker one time, who thought he was the smartest guy in the room and always won every argument; sometimes when people stop talking to you it doesn't necessarily mean you've won the argument, but rather that everyone else has decided that you're so arrogant and full of it that there's no point in any further discussion.

    It's clear to me that you don't understand nearly so much as you think you do, and are arrogantly defending an indefensible position. Anyone who advocates overloading 70+ year old rifles the way you are deserves to be ignored.
    Interesting...I ask you questions to clarify on comments you made and you won't answer...

    Stating the turk ammo is safe for semis if you put it in new brass is "indefensible"?? Overloading?? LOL...ok..

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vintovka View Post
    Again risking several thousand dollars worth of firearm with three cent ammo - well, at least some rare parts may be available soon.
    What risk?

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    N Mexico
    Posts
    7,248

    Default

    This thread is just an irresistible force vs an immovable object.

    Bye
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    This thread is just an irresistible force vs an immovable object.

    Bye
    Thats what happens when people don't open their minds and explore all the possibilities...

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    1,060

    Default

    I did not intend this thread to turn into a pissing match about the safety of Turkish ammo in semi automatic rifles. Thanks to those who contributed and responded to my original question about reducing the powder charge to shoot in bolt action rifles. It turns out the crack in the wrist was an old one that opened up. It has since been fixed and is no longer an issue.
    Last edited by bitrclngr; 07-11-2020 at 07:05 PM.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    11,054

    Default

    What you propose may constitute a Liability to site owners and actual danger to others. From a legal standpoint i recommend the Mods take appropriate action before its too late.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vintovka View Post
    What you propose may constitute a Liability to site owners and actual danger to others. From a legal standpoint i recommend the Mods take appropriate action before its too late.
    What have I proposed? I mean I'm not the one shooting ammo with cracks in the brass like you are. That's pretty irresponsible since no one recommends shooting ammo like that.

    I mean if you are here just to stir things up...
    Last edited by Jeremy2171; 07-11-2020 at 08:27 PM.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,768

    Default

    Guess I missed all the hooplah.
    All I know is that my inexpensive bolt-actions get hot or suspect or Turkish or corrosive ammo, not my my $3000-ish G43. Just sayin'.......
    Always looking for interesting 7.62x25 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser cartridges!!!
    Member: International Ammunition Assoc. (IAA), European Cartridge Research Assoc. (ECRA). Ask me about membership!

  16. #61
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny c. View Post
    Guess I missed all the hooplah.
    All I know is that my inexpensive bolt-actions get hot or suspect or Turkish or corrosive ammo, not my my $3000-ish G43. Just sayin'.......
    I don't shoot turk brass in my semis either

  17. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Northwest Ohio, about five miles from Lake Erie
    Posts
    12,039

    Default

    The brass is far less of an issue with me than is the powder. I have shot thousands of rounds of Turk, and the worst 'brass failure' I ever had was a few neck cracks.

    Like I said before, based upon your descriptions, I am not planning on buying any of your used gas rifles in 8mm.

    No skin off MY nose if you want to bust them up.

    Just in case you ever need him, I do have contact information for a guy in Michigan who is really good with a microwelding machine to fix your broken semi auto parts. You can guess the reason why I have this info and knows he can make this sort of repair.

  18. #63
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronbo6 View Post
    The brass is far less of an issue with me than is the powder. I have shot thousands of rounds of Turk, and the worst 'brass failure' I ever had was a few neck cracks.

    Like I said before, based upon your descriptions, I am not planning on buying any of your used gas rifles in 8mm.

    No skin off MY nose if you want to bust them up.

    Just in case you ever need him, I do have contact information for a guy in Michigan who is really good with a microwelding machine to fix your broken semi auto parts. You can guess the reason why I have this info and knows he can make this sort of repair.
    Why are you concerned about the powder?

  19. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Northwest Ohio, about five miles from Lake Erie
    Posts
    12,039

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
    Why are you concerned about the powder?

    BURN RATE!!!!!

    This is the 'main thing' that makes Turkish ammunition what it is. Claim what YOU want about the brass, but it is uncontrolled PORT PRESSURE that is going to hammer the parts of the rifle to the point they break.

  20. #65
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronbo6 View Post
    BURN RATE!!!!!

    This is the 'main thing' that makes Turkish ammunition what it is. Claim what YOU want about the brass, but it is uncontrolled PORT PRESSURE that is going to hammer the parts of the rifle to the point they break.
    The burn rate is similar to 4895 so no worries about gas guns. It has similar port pressure of Yugo milsurp as well.

  21. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    N Mexico
    Posts
    7,248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
    The burn rate is similar to 4895 so no worries about gas guns. It has similar port pressure of Yugo milsurp as well.
    The distance a gas semi auto pitches fired brass “MAY” indicate port pressure..
    It is not a reliable measurement of port pressure. Different ammo (the ctg case) May extract easier or harder, and the base hardness/thickness may bounce differently from the ejector.

    Do they even teach science in school anymore.?
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

  22. #67
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    The distance a gas semi auto pitches fired brass “MAY” indicate port pressure..
    It is not a reliable measurement of port pressure. Different ammo (the ctg case) May extract easier or harder, and the base hardness/thickness may bounce differently from the ejector.

    Do they even teach science in school anymore.?
    Yes I know ejection distance isn't a measure of port pressure..thats why you look at bolt velocity.

    I wouldn't know if they teach science anymore...I haven't been in school for decades.

  23. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    N Mexico
    Posts
    7,248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
    Yes I know ejection distance isn't a measure of port pressure..thats why you look at bolt velocity.

    I wouldn't know if they teach science anymore...I haven't been in school for decades.
    So bolt velocity isn’t at all effected by extraction resistance? Bolt velocity isn’t a measurement of port pressure either. If you want to know about and tell us about port pressure? You measure it AT the gas port.

    Back to school Jeremy.
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

  24. #69
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    So bolt velocity isn’t at all effected by extraction resistance? Bolt velocity isn’t a measurement of port pressure either. If you want to know about and tell us about port pressure? You measure it AT the gas port.

    Back to school Jeremy.
    Ammunition that moves the bolt at comparable speeds has comparable port pressure...

    Bolt velocity is directly related to port pressure so yes its a useful comparison.

    Back to school for you ammolab

  25. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    N Mexico
    Posts
    7,248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
    Ammunition that moves the bolt at comparable speeds has comparable port pressure...

    Bolt velocity is directly related to port pressure so yes its a useful comparison.

    Back to school for you ammolab
    You really don’t understand internal ballistics. Chamber pressure at the time the bullet passes the gas port effects bolt velocity. Hardness/thickness and the friction of the ctg in the chamber effects bolt velocity.
    Port pressure Does effect bolt velocity...but if you have DIFFERENT cartridges (Turk reload & Yugo GI milsurp) you ARE NOT measuring port pressure by measuring bolt velocity. You are just measuring bolt velocity. Good to keep you from hammering your modified G43...but that is it.
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

  26. #71
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    You really don’t understand internal ballistics. Chamber pressure at the time the bullet passes the gas port effects bolt velocity. Hardness/thickness and the friction of the ctg in the chamber effects bolt velocity.
    Port pressure Does effect bolt velocity...but if you have DIFFERENT cartridges (Turk reload & Yugo GI milsurp) you ARE NOT measuring port pressure by measuring bolt velocity. You are just measuring bolt velocity. Good to keep you from hammering your modified G43...but that is it.
    Exactly.. and since the ctgs are the same the only difference is the powder and projectiles. Therefore you have a very good indication that port pressures are very similar. Not withstanding the fact that the turk powder is medium burn rate and safe for semis.

    Modified G43..unmodified G43...FN49 whatever... the short story is the turk ammo is fine for gas guns...with the exception that the brass is brittle and for that reason don't use turk ammo in gas guns until you have put the components into new brass.

  27. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    N Mexico
    Posts
    7,248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
    Exactly.. and since the ctgs are the same the only difference is the powder and projectiles. Therefore you have a very good indication that port pressures are very similar. Not withstanding the fact that the turk powder is medium burn rate and safe for semis.

    Modified G43..unmodified G43...FN49 whatever... the short story is the turk ammo is fine for gas guns...with the exception that the brass is brittle and for that reason don't use turk ammo in gas guns until you have put the components into new brass.
    Did you use PPU military brass in your reload? What was the chamber pressure in your Turk powder reload? So the Turk powder reload had the exact SAME instrument measurement for chamber pressure as the video Yugo GI Ammo. The ammo you are using for “bolt velocity equals port pressure”?

    No, you had different cartridge cases, different and unknown chamber pressures. So you don’t know port pressure or chamber pressure. You do know bolt velocity in that one modified G43. So OK it seems good in that one gun.
    But that is only good for THAT Turk Ammo. Remember they made that for decades. It ain’t all the same.
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

  28. #73
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    Did you use PPU military brass in your reload? What was the chamber pressure in your Turk powder reload? So the Turk powder reload had the exact SAME instrument measurement for chamber pressure as the video Yugo GI Ammo. The ammo you are using for “bolt velocity equals port pressure”?

    No, you had different cartridge cases, different and unknown chamber pressures. So you don’t know port pressure or chamber pressure. You do know bolt velocity in that one modified G43. So OK it seems good in that one gun.
    But that is only good for THAT Turk Ammo. Remember they made that for decades. It ain’t all the same.
    All ammo tested was in win commercial brass... so again the only difference was the powder and projectile. Direct comparison I don't need to know the chamber pressure or the port pressure. All we need is bolt velocity. And bolt velocity was similar for the two different years of turk the greek and yugo ammo. The whole point of the test was to see if turk had increased bolt velocity compared to other milsurp...it doesn't.

    It's not loaded with slow powder and it's safe in gas guns. Not sure why you have a hard time believing this....if you doubt it go test it yourself...post your results.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •