Finn scopeless PE
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Thread: Finn scopeless PE

  1. #1

    Default Finn scopeless PE

    This interesting finnish captured PE-Sniper sold this morning (I am neither the seller nor the buyer):

    https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=8723096

    Obviously it has been rescoped at some point, but not the way it should be. Probably the guys at Century thought that half of the job was already done (bent bolt), just the threaded holes were at the wrong position.

    Actually my finnish captured scopeless PE has a serial number ~2000 below this one (also a '36 round receiver). It came from the same importer (probably via Century). Makes me wonder if the two were even captured together.

  2. #2
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    Looks Swiss with all those extra holes.

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    This rifle sold in Germany so I don't think Century would have had a hand in it........

    The importer into Europe was Waffen-Frankonia, located in Wurzberg in Germany.They are a major importer of Mosins etc into Europe from Russia and Ukraine etc.
    My '44 Izhevsk PU was imported into Europe by them and bears the small Waffen-Frankonia stamp that they put on every firearm they import.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snayperskaya View Post
    This rifle sold in Germany so I don't think Century would have had a hand in it........

    The importer into Europe was Waffen-Frankonia, located in Wurzberg in Germany.They are a major importer of Mosins etc into Europe from Russia and Ukraine etc.
    My '44 Izhevsk PU was imported into Europe by them and bears the small Waffen-Frankonia stamp that they put on every firearm they import.
    Frankonia imported directly from military stocks, but also bought miscellaneous stuff from century. In one of their catalogues from the 90ies, they even had pictured a century shipping crate. I think I've read in an article from kh in "Visier" that their PU mosins also came from century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joda View Post
    Frankonia imported directly from military stocks, but also bought miscellaneous stuff from century. In one of their catalogues from the 90ies, they even had pictured a century shipping crate. I think I've read in an article from kh in "Visier" that their PU mosins also came from century.
    Ah, I see.....

    Being in the UK I didn't realise, I just thought that Frankonia imported Mosin's etc direct from the source in Russia and Eastern Europe, I never thought they'd import them from the States as well.

    Just a thought but if they (Frankonia) imported Mosin's from the US into Germany wouldn't those Mosins have importers marks from the original US importers?.....if that makes sense.
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    As said, there were also very large direct imports, e.g. from Ukraine. I am not sure about the laws for import marks and wholesale, but I'm pretty sure that Century is located in Canada, no? I think most repro/fake Mosin snipers Europe are from the American continent. PE repros from Coles were imported by Transarms (initially sold without noting that it's a repro, but also not stating that they are repro, later on they were advertised by resellers as originals: "Original Sniper, since it has the circle C Sniper mark"). Gun trade has always been an international business, also in the past. Only look at companies like Bannermann or Benny Spiro.

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    I my experience the vast majority of repro/fake PU snipers, in the UK at least, are either cobbled together in the UK by often unscrupulous dealers*, owners or come in from places like Ukraine with repro scopes and mounts already fitted and often advertised as "original/genuine"

    That said my '44 Izhevsk PU that is arsenal matching came into the UK via Germany in around 1990.I must have looked at around a dozen repro/fakes before I foumd this one by accident.

    *as an example there was a quite well respected UK dealer that was fitting combinations of repro/original PU scopes and mounts to Soviet M44 carbines and selling them as "original Border Guard tower sniper rifles".....I saw one at my club range, the guy paid twice the price of a regular M44 and the both the scope and the mount were reproduction.Not so much a problem if the rifle is a good shooter and the buyer is aware it is a reproduction/facsimile of something that never existed but the buyer had been told it was an "original matching sniper rifle" which is just wrong!.


    Edit.....just checked, Century are based in Florida
    Last edited by Snayperskaya; 05-24-2020 at 01:21 PM.
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    I don't think Frankonia would buy this rifle from the US and bring it to Germany, that would be the first German proofed and US import marked Nagant rifle I have seen.

    Too bad they drilled and welded this one (description mentions pin welded into the chamber and barrel cut open under rear sight). Weird to see both top mount holes drilled, but additionally PU scope holes. According to the description a bolt mismatching rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    I don't think Frankonia would buy this rifle from the US and bring it to Germany, that would be the first German proofed and US import marked Nagant rifle I have seen.
    That was my thoughts too, why would Frankonia import Mosins from the USA when the original sources are on their doorstep so to speak.
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    is it possible the rusins changed it PU configuration?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snayperskaya View Post
    That was my thoughts too, why would Frankonia import Mosins from the USA when the original sources are on their doorstep so to speak.
    Allright, I am wrong on Century. I still believe that at least part of the Frankonia repro PUs are from them. Currently I do not have access to the article and the old catalogues, so it's only a guess based on the observation of examples that looked the same as the Century ones. This does not mean that they didn't sell original PU snipers. It's well known here that they sold stuff from different sources and with different quality as the same product. For example, they once had very nice original french made sabres from Chile. When they were sold out, they had them made up from spares in India. Most people did not know or care at the time.

    There is at least one US Import marked gun was sold by Frankonia. It's not a Mosin, but it was also sold in the 90ies and in the same category of cheap scrap. If I am not wrong again, this is the import mark from Navy Arms, Ridgefield NJ.
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    While we might have lengthy discussions on where Frankonia is purchasing rifles I do not necessarily see any connection between the rifle in question where other details are of interest to collectors than the way this rifle took to where it currently is. No one ever excluded Frankonia from buying rifles from the US, for the particular rifle it didn't apply, but that is about all that is needed to say in this context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    While we might have lengthy discussions on where Frankonia is purchasing rifles I do not necessarily see any connection between the rifle in question where other details are of interest to collectors than the way this rifle took to where it currently is. No one ever excluded Frankonia from buying rifles from the US, for the particular rifle it didn't apply, but that is about all that is needed to say in this context.
    Sorry to have gone off on a tangent
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    Sorry from my side, too. I did not intend to bore anyone with a fruitless discussion.

    @ Slobodan: While I cannot prove anything, I highly doubt this. The majority of finnish captured soviet rifles were captured in the winter war and at the beginning of the continuation war. I think the PU was issued in larger numbers only when the finnish front already had become static (and thus only few rifles were captured). Original finnish captured PU snipers are thus more rare than the earlier versions (IMHO). A finn captured soviet conversion to PU (which I don't know whether they ever existed) would thus be even more improbable.
    Anyway to me, the cutouts in the stock for the PU base look too fresh.

    Back to my original point: There are now two finn captured PE-Snipers from the same year and about 2000 apart in serial numbers, imported by the same company (Frankonia). I've been told that '36 round receiver snipers are not that common. Does anyone know whether they were manufactured in batches in that time frame or from single selected barrels? So is there a chance that they were packed (and eventually captured) in the same shipping crate?

    Second question: There seem to be additional numbers on the butt plates of both rifles. It could be "111" on the later one on egun and "11" on mine (+ a handstruck "D" or "P"??). Does anyone have an idea on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joda View Post
    Sorry from my side, too. I did not intend to bore anyone with a fruitless discussion.

    @ Slobodan: While I cannot prove anything, I highly doubt this. The majority of finnish captured soviet rifles were captured in the winter war and at the beginning of the continuation war. I think the PU was issued in larger numbers only when the finnish front already had become static (and thus only few rifles were captured). Original finnish captured PU snipers are thus more rare than the earlier versions (IMHO). A finn captured soviet conversion to PU (which I don't know whether they ever existed) would thus be even more improbable.
    Anyway to me, the cutouts in the stock for the PU base look too fresh.

    Back to my original point: There are now two finn captured PE-Snipers from the same year and about 2000 apart in serial numbers, imported by the same company (Frankonia). I've been told that '36 round receiver snipers are not that common. Does anyone know whether they were manufactured in batches in that time frame or from single selected barrels? So is there a chance that they were packed (and eventually captured) in the same shipping crate?

    Second question: There seem to be additional numbers on the butt plates of both rifles. It could be "111" on the later one on egun and "11" on mine (+ a handstruck "D" or "P"??). Does anyone have an idea on that?


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    I have a 1364xx something non Finn round PE no rebuild mark. It fits in the middle of yours nicely. So it is possible it was a run of at least 1000 +/- ? Speculation I know. On the Finn PU side i think I have four, only one of which is Tula. All are 43"s. Never seen a legit SA that was not a 43? Does not mean they do not exist. All are SA stamped and still in grease.. No 41 stamps. I am thinking Continuation War too.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjmd View Post
    I have a 1364xx something non Finn round PE no rebuild mark. It fits in the middle of yours nicely. So it is possible it was a run of at least 1000 +/- ? Speculation I know. On the Finn PU side i think I have four, only one of which is Tula. All are 43"s. Never seen a legit SA that was not a 43? Does not mean they do not exist. All are SA stamped and still in grease.. No 41 stamps. I am thinking Continuation War too.
    I was about to write that it really looks like a larger batch of sniper rifles. However, I just looked at the production numbers: There were so many sniper rifles produced that actully both is possible. In 1936, about 13000 PE/PEM Snipers were produced. According to mosinnagant.net, the production number of standard infantry rifles of Tula in that year is unknown. But if it is on the same level as 1937 (~300000), this means that about every 23rd Tula produced 91/30 was a sniper rifle, no? So on average, there should be more than 80 sniper rifles in a serial range of 2000. That's much more than I would have thought initially.

    Any additional markings on your butt plate?

    A real finn captured PU is really a great find. I have seen so many finn marked repros that I nearly stopped looking for a real one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joda View Post
    I was about to write that it really looks like a larger batch of sniper rifles. However, I just looked at the production numbers: There were so many sniper rifles produced that actully both is possible. In 1936, about 13000 PE/PEM Snipers were produced. According to mosinnagant.net, the production number of standard infantry rifles of Tula in that year is unknown. But if it is on the same level as 1937 (~300000), this means that about every 23rd Tula produced 91/30 was a sniper rifle, no? So on average, there should be more than 80 sniper rifles in a serial range of 2000. That's much more than I would have thought initially.

    Any additional markings on your butt plate?

    A real finn captured PU is really a great find. I have seen so many finn marked repros that I nearly stopped looking for a real one
    .
    A original 43 Finn captured PU recently moved on a auction site for a great price. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/861550961 . The mosin sniper market appears to be soft at the moment imo

    I believe a board member here purchased it.

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