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Savage 1907 in 380 Has Striker Follow

3K views 11 replies 2 participants last post by  Johnm1 
#1 ·
At this point I'm hoping someone here has first hand knowledge of this design and can help guide me to a resolution. The title describes the problem. The striker follows the slide forward if the slide is operated energetically. It will remain cocked if the slide is operated slowly. I'm not a gunsmith and can't afford to pay one to figure this one out. Here is a diagram of the gun in question as well as a picture of the gun partially assembled. Operation is not intuitive. If you are interested in seeing how it works this video shows the operation very well. This pistol functions like the video except the striker follows.


https://youtu.be/Wze0y_LGO7Q

There are a lot of details left unsaid in what I have written. I have stared at the action exstenivly and performed an untold number of tests to try to identify what the problem is without success. I can replicate the striker follow with either/both the trigger assembly or the barrel/recoil spring removed from the firearm. So in my mind the problem has to be in the breach block.
 

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#2 ·
I'm no expert, in fact, I am Bubba. However, based on your yootoobe link, I would suspect that sear (11, I think) or the firing pin (14) or the little spring behind the sear (5). The sear/firing pin interface may be rounded off instead of sharp.
 

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#3 ·
Thanks Dr.

It took you minutes to come to the same conclusion I did over the last 2 weeks. And I assume you are correct and very much appreciate your looking at it and responding. Like I said, I'm not a gunsmith but do know when to stop and get a gunsmith to do things that I know I cannot do and don't have the equipment to do. In this case to ask a gunsmith to figure it out at $80-$90/hour isn't an option. If I can figure it out and the fix requires the skill of a gunsmith I would have no hesitation to bring a gunsmith my gunsmith type work.

There are a lot of things that aren't said in this post, and I apologize up front. I have a very detailed thread on The High Road Gunsmithing forum with a lot of views but crickets as far as anyone whith experience with these pistols. My hope here is to find someone who actually has taken the breach block/plug/fire control apart so I can know what to expect for reassembly. The next step is to disassemble the breach block and detail clean and inspect for wear. This includes the parts that you have identified. But there is so little information on the internet on that operation that I'd like some actual experience on putting one back together. I understand from one post I found on the internet that the firing pin spring is 2" long and needs to be compressed to about 1" for reassembly. This has to be done while aligning the pivot pin through both sides of the frame and the cocking piece. I suspect that the firing pin at least assists in holding the sear in place but I don't know that for sure. If so, that would complicate reassembly.

I noticed this problem in 2015 and found somone close to me here in Arizona who had experiece disassembling the breach bolt/block and offered to help me if I drove the 200 miles to him. I was willing to do that and buy the beer but got distracted and didn't re-start this project until now. Unfortunately that person hasn't been on that forum since 2016 and doesn't reply to e-mails.

I think the answer to my questions will only be available once the breach block is disassembled. I just don't want to get into the situation where I have it apart, know what the problem is and can't get it back together again. At some point in the near future I'm going to have to take the leap of faith that I can put it back together again and just do it.

After a lot of internet searches there is only one mention of this problem (other than my post from 5 years ago on the Firing Line) that at least describes the problem.

from:
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=95308

"These are fine pistols. The only weakness I have seen is that the machined pivot for the sear can wear, changing the sear position and causing hammer follow. The area that wears is the pivot area of the bolt rather than the sear pivot area. The fix is to replace the bolt. Sorry for the ramble but I thought other Savage owners might like to know, in case they have this problem."


If your like me, you would think there is a pin that the sear pivots on. But there isn't. It does pivot around a particular 'place' there just isn't a pin to pivot around.

Again I'm hoping we can find someone here who has experience taking the breach bolt/block apart as that is the next step. I'm open to any comments people have though.

Thanks again!
 
#4 ·
I could see that if whatever makes that thing pivot is worn, that would likely do it also. If a bolt is available, based on other's fixing the same problem, I would try that. Of course, any hundred year old part prone to failure is going to be hard to replace with a good one. I've run into that problem with Spanish 7mm barrels.
 
#5 ·
I have one of these in 32 ACP that doesn't have the problem. At least not to the degree the 380 has it. As I recall the 32 only once had a striker follow but I'm not sure if that was due to lack of cleaning or not. I may have cleaned it since that incident and cured that issue. but it was 5 years ago and I just don't remember.

Once I get the bolt apart I can make assessments on condition. I'm not sure I am qualified to make part assessments on a 107 year old pistol, but I suspect that the last Savage employee who could make an accurate assessment based on actual knowledge of the firearm died 50 years ago. A gunsmith could probably make a better assessment of condition but that would depend on the gunsmith.

That being said, once apart I can try to figure out how the sear pivots. If it is a surface I have found that I can gain knowledge by temporarily adding material to the area I think is worn. Depending on the part and how much surface pressure is applied in operation this can be done by simply adding some nail polish. This adds a few thousandths but wears away after only a few operation cycles. But sometimes it reveals if the surface needs to be built up or not. If the surface has a lot of force on it while in operation or needs a large amount of material added, I'll use a two part epoxy to build it up. Both are not permanent and I can always get back to bare metal without the expense of TIG welding just to see if it works.

You have correctly identified the issue with used 107 year old parts. There just isn't a way to conclusively determine if the replacement part has the same issue or another issue.

Use parts are available from Jack First

https://jack-first-gun-parts.myshopify.com/ .

Although some of his parts are newly made, most are used take offs. Weisners

http://www.wisnersinc.com/part-catelog/

has newly made parts and I have had great luck with their parts. They just don't make any parts for Savage. You should see me try to fit a newly made part into a hundred year old firearm. What would have taken the factory assembly employee 20 seconds to do might take me 8 hours to do because I have to figure out what surface needs to be fitted and what doesn't. I find if you can go slow enough you can gain knowledge that these employees from 100 years ago also knew. That is kind of interesting in and of itself.
 
#6 ·
Well, I bit the bullet and removed the firing pin retainer in an attempt to take the breach bolt apart. Unfortuantely the cocking piece pivot pin isn't moving. I soaked it and now it is in the freezer. Hopefully it is just a matter of time before I have it apart. Whether I can put it back together again is another question.

It has been suggested that the sear surface may be the issue and on the surface that would appear to be the most likely culprit. But my gut thinks otherwise. Whether the breach block is installed or out of the firearm, the sear seems to hold at least as well as my 32 version. I have tested with a 2 pound rubber mallet on the front, back, and sides of the firearm or a hand held breach block. In all cases the sear stays 'un-tripped' in all positions except from directly behind. It will trip with a sharp blow from the rear. But that is also true of the 32 caliber firearm/breach bolt that I have. Also, it seems to me from the way the sear engages the firing pin, that a blow from the front would release a worn sear surface, not from behind.

None of this is logical in the scientific sense. Hopefully the breach bolt will come apart tonight and I can learn something and figure a way around the issue. I'll keep this post updated.
 
#7 ·
The pin isn't moving with what I believe is an appropriate amount of force from the hammer. I'm afraid to hit too hard and peen the end of the pin. It is soaking in kroil as we speed but if that doesn't work I'll put it in my ultra sonic cleaner with either Kroil or my home made Ed's Red.

Do no harm!
 
#8 ·
Stroke of luck today. I visited a gun shop in Tucson that I had not been to before. Frontier guns. He doesn't sell new guns. Doesn't even have a distributor to order from. He just deals in older firearms and what he gets in on trade. Great selection of really neat old stuff. He has a bookshelf that I spent some time thumbing through. Lo and behold there was a copy of "Firearms assembly II, the NRA guidebook to handguns" and there is a section on the Savage 1910 including disassembly of the breach block.


The pin is still soaking in Kroil. I'll be traveling around tomorrow so I won't be able to work on it again until Sunday. Ill use the ultra sonic cleaner. The instructions didn't have any surprises in it. It provided a sequence and a series of steps. Like most, it didn't offer any reinstallation instructions. Not even the statement to reassemble in reverse. So I guess I don't know everything yet, but at least I know the steps to take it apart and the reassembly should be fairly close. And now I know how the Sear is held in place. My assumption that the firing pin helped hold it in place appears to be correct.
 
#9 ·
Dr. Hess is the winner!

I had to put the Savage down for a little bit before I did something stupid. I ordered some parts from Jack First that arrived today. I didn't see anything wrong with the sear, though I'm not sure I was the best person to come to that conclusion so I didn't order one of those. I did order another firing pin just 'cause'. Low and behold when I look at the replacement it looks different than the one that is in the gun. The firing pin in the gun has a sloped surface where the sear engages the firing pin. The replacement doesn't. And, it looks like it was intentional and not wear. I'd bet someone tried to lessen the trigger pull and overdid it. Here is a picture of the existing firing pin with the slope on it. I bet I could rotate the existing firing pin 180 degrees and it would be fine. I think I'll just use the new pin. I'll assemble tomorrow and confirm this solves the hammer follow (striker follow).

 
#10 ·
Well, we have success!


At least until I can get this one out to the range and function test it with live rounds. I suspect the function test with live rounds will confirm success. But the slope on the firing pin was the cause of the hammer follow. At first I replaced only the sear spring but that did not cure the hammer follow. Next I turned the existing firing pin 180 degrees and took the slope on the pin out of the equation. That worked at least when cycling by hand. And cycling by hand had a 100% failure rate previously unless you cycled it gently. And, the trigger pull isn't bad. I was afraid that by removing the slope I'd end up with a 15 pound trigger pull. Not sure what it is, but it is sufficient for a 380 defensive pistol with tiny sights. Man I wish they had made any of these old guns with decent sights. Heck, the 25 I'm working on doesn't even have sights. Talk about being honest about expectations.


I did look at the same surface on the 32 version of the same pistol and the sloped surface was not there. So I figured replacing, or in this case reversing, the firing pin would cure the problem.
 
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