Winchester 1895 Russian Musket Questions
Results 1 to 31 of 31

Thread: Winchester 1895 Russian Musket Questions

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default Winchester 1895 Russian Musket Questions

    I recently traded a couple of my pistols to my brother for his Winchester 1895 Russian musket, which I've had my eye on for years. 'As received' pics are below. There are some value detracting points on the rifle. The handguard has been replaced with a repro. There is also a hole drilled in front of the left clip guide that is not standard. The finger lever pin stop screw is also missing, and is on order. The top tang is also very proud over the stock. I doubt if I replace it, but am a bit disappointed in that. Otherwise it's a pretty slick example and a good shooter, according to my bro.

    I've completely disassembled the
    rifle now and can't believe the number of parts! Most parts match with an 18 assembly number. It always kinda amazes me that in the early 1900's hundreds of thousands of these could be manufactured from scratch in such a short period of time.

    I have a couple of questions about this rifle and accessories that no one on the Winchester forum seems to know. I know you guys are Mosin fans, but thought you'd be interested in seeing this veteran and might know where I can find some of the accessories.

    I'll post more pics later as I get this cleaned and restored. But for now,

    - The bayonet that was sent with the rifle is beautiful, with the correct Winchester markings. I'd like to find a repro scabbard for it, which I think is metal. Are these made and if so by whom?

    - A cleaning pull through and take down tool were evidently issued with the Russian contract '95's. Does anyone have pics or know where to find repros of these?

    - I'm also interested in finding a repro sling for the Russian '95. Anyone know of a good source?

    - I found Marc Gorelick's article on this model. It is thorough and supplies a great deal of info about this rifle. An interesting note he makes is that the serial numbers of the second shipment to Russia from Winchester fall within the 174,234 through 377,412 range. This rifle is 392,967. I am wondering if more current information has come to light around this since Marc wrote his paper. Any ideas?

    Thanks, as always, for your insights.

    Greg

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_4354.jpg 
Views:	379 
Size:	618.9 KB 
ID:	3679495
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_4355.jpg 
Views:	380 
Size:	534.3 KB 
ID:	3679497

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    351

    Default




    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30931252.jpg 
Views:	19 
Size:	160.0 KB 
ID:	3679537Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30931269.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	108.0 KB 
ID:	3679539Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30931274.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	111.9 KB 
ID:	3679541

    In Russian sources, I did not have to meet data on the numbers of Winchesters M1895. Only the total number of rifles delivered to Russia is known - 296570 pieces.
    The latest rifle stored in the museum has a number - 353310. It was made in 1916.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Снимок экрана о&#1.png 
Views:	10 
Size:	550.3 KB 
ID:	3679543Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Снимок экрана о&#1.png 
Views:	10 
Size:	918.5 KB 
ID:	3679545


    All Winchester M1895 rifles that were armed in Russia had two types of stamps. If your rifle has them, then this is a rifle from the Russian Contract.
    This type:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Снимок экрана о&#1.png 
Views:	11 
Size:	1.20 MB 
ID:	3679551

    Or this type:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Снимок экрана о&#1.png 
Views:	10 
Size:	711.1 KB 
ID:	3679553




    Cleaning tools:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Снимок экрана о&#1.png 
Views:	9 
Size:	366.0 KB 
ID:	3679547Click image for larger version. 

Name:	9386353_2.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	139.2 KB 
ID:	3679549

    Photo of cleaning accessories is very rare and for this I will give a link where I got it from:

    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...57#post9924157
    Last edited by Dimitriy; 06-28-2020 at 04:11 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South metro Atlanta area.
    Posts
    3,410

    Default

    Great info from Dimitriy and I want to thank you gpcooke for mentioning Marc Gorelick's info on the Russian Musket. I have one of the Winchesters so I looked him up and found the article is an interesting reference. I learned a lot from it.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    GunBoards.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    10,005

    Default

    Dimitriy:

    Thanks for posting more wonderful photos! Each and every one of these images goes straight into my archive of saved photos.

    Thank you!
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    There are more in the thread at Russian board
    https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/36/2080819.html

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    2,232

    Default

    Nice rifle, Greg! Right at home during the Brusilov offensive:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Win.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	119.1 KB 
ID:	3680673
    "No Anchovies? You got the wrong man, I spell my name Danger!" (Click)

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Thanks for these great responses, guys! I'd not seen those pics before. Looks like it will be tough finding the accessories I was hoping for. I'll post more info about this rifle after I get it reassembled.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Visiting the Russian site, I saw the Book "Allied Rifle Contracts in America" and found that it is available on eBay if anyone is interested.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,721

    Default

    Scabbard looks similar to a Argentine 1891, you may want to ask someone that has both to make a comparison.

  11. #10
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Super Moderator/Diamond Bullet member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Where HAL-9000 was built
    Posts
    11,563

    Default

    It may have been already discussed, but just in case.

    ХиЗ = Хатунцев и Задде, the two Russian officers who accepted the rifle, col. Hatuntsev and capt. Zadde.
    Last edited by Nick; 07-01-2020 at 11:37 AM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  12. #11
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    351

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    It may have been already discussed, but just in case.

    ХиЗ = Хатунцев и Заде, the two Russian officers who accepted the rifle, col. Hatuntsev and capt. Zade.
    Greetings, Nick, good to see you)
    +100500 truly


    Last edited by Dimitriy; 06-30-2020 at 08:57 PM.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Essex View Post
    Scabbard looks similar to a Argentine 1891, you may want to ask someone that has both to make a comparison.
    Great idea, Essex! I'll check.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    It may have been already discussed, but just in case.

    ХиЗ = Хатунцев и Заде, the two Russian officers who accepted the rifle, col. Hatuntsev and capt. Zade.
    Good to know, Nick! Thanks!

  15. #14
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Super Moderator/Diamond Bullet member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Where HAL-9000 was built
    Posts
    11,563

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimitriy View Post
    Greetings, Nick, good to see you)
    What book is the excerpt from? There is some info on M1895 in "Винтовки и карабины российской империи", but this one looks better.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  16. #15
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    351

    Default

    These are pages from a booklet dedicated to the seminar of the Russian historical military society. It is freely available and anyone can download it.
    There are only about twenty pages and I was lucky to get it in good quality))
    You see, I have been interested in the History of Weapons for a long time and am registered on more than 20 Internet resources.
    I fundamentally disagree with the policies of most of them, and I write nothing there, but only read them. You understand what I mean)))
    And sometimes it’s possible to get interesting photos and parts of some documents.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	18613522.jpg 
Views:	8 
Size:	43.9 KB 
ID:	3682209Click image for larger version. 

Name:	18613524.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	114.7 KB 
ID:	3682211

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Makes me wish I'd kept up on my Russian...

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    10,923

    Default

    Great thread, great photos and pics!!!!!
    KH

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gpcooke View Post
    I recently traded a couple of my pistols to my brother for his Winchester 1895 Russian musket, which I've had my eye on for years. 'As received' pics are below. There are some value detracting points on the rifle. The handguard has been replaced with a repro. There is also a hole drilled in front of the left clip guide that is not standard. The finger lever pin stop screw is also missing, and is on order. The top tang is also very proud over the stock. I doubt if I replace it, but am a bit disappointed in that. Otherwise it's a pretty slick example and a good shooter, according to my bro.

    I've completely disassembled the
    rifle now and can't believe the number of parts! Most parts match with an 18 assembly number. It always kinda amazes me that in the early 1900's hundreds of thousands of these could be manufactured from scratch in such a short period of time.

    I have a couple of questions about this rifle and accessories that no one on the Winchester forum seems to know. I know you guys are Mosin fans, but thought you'd be interested in seeing this veteran and might know where I can find some of the accessories.

    I'll post more pics later as I get this cleaned and restored. But for now,

    - The bayonet that was sent with the rifle is beautiful, with the correct Winchester markings. I'd like to find a repro scabbard for it, which I think is metal. Are these made and if so by whom?

    - A cleaning pull through and take down tool were evidently issued with the Russian contract '95's. Does anyone have pics or know where to find repros of these?

    - I'm also interested in finding a repro sling for the Russian '95. Anyone know of a good source?

    - I found Marc Gorelick's article on this model. It is thorough and supplies a great deal of info about this rifle. An interesting note he makes is that the serial numbers of the second shipment to Russia from Winchester fall within the 174,234 through 377,412 range. This rifle is 392,967. I am wondering if more current information has come to light around this since Marc wrote his paper. Any ideas?

    Thanks, as always, for your insights.

    Greg

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_4354.jpg 
Views:	379 
Size:	618.9 KB 
ID:	3679495
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_4355.jpg 
Views:	380 
Size:	534.3 KB 
ID:	3679497
    Great thread and fantastic info!
    I could've missed it - does your rifle have an "Xn3" stamp?
    The serial number puts it in the very beginning of 1919 production year

  20. #19
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Super Moderator/Diamond Bullet member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Where HAL-9000 was built
    Posts
    11,563

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimitriy View Post
    These are pages from a booklet dedicated to the seminar of the Russian historical military society.
    I knew I have seen it somewhere, thanks!
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yuriman View Post
    Great thread and fantastic info!
    I could've missed it - does your rifle have an "Xn3" stamp?
    The serial number puts it in the very beginning of 1919 production year
    Yes, both on the receiver and barrel.

  22. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yuriman View Post
    Great thread and fantastic info!
    I could've missed it - does your rifle have an "Xn3" stamp?
    The serial number puts it in the very beginning of 1919 production year
    For all you Russian historians out there: Here we have a rifle that entered Russian army use during 1919, if that is the year that it was manufactured. So I believe that Russia pulled out of the war in 1918, correct? And these were typically issued to the northern troops, perhaps Latvian. The rifle is pretty heavily worn, though the bore is in great shape. Give us some ideas, based on your knowledge of the times, of where the rifle was used and by whom...

  23. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    661

    Default

    What does a Russian 1895 in nice shape go for these days?

  24. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gpcooke View Post
    For all you Russian historians out there: Here we have a rifle that entered Russian army use during 1919, if that is the year that it was manufactured. So I believe that Russia pulled out of the war in 1918, correct? And these were typically issued to the northern troops, perhaps Latvian. The rifle is pretty heavily worn, though the bore is in great shape. Give us some ideas, based on your knowledge of the times, of where the rifle was used and by whom...
    That was exactly my point, let's see what the experts have to say about that )

  25. #24
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    351

    Default

    I don’t know what the experts will say)) I can say that the question is not when WW1 ended. The contract for the supply of Winchester M1895 rifles to Russia ended in 1917.
    I could be wrong, most likely "Frankenstein rifle". It is all assembled from different parts. All parts of the rifle have a different color and wooden and metal. That is, it is assembled from different parts. If it does not bother you, you could not take a photo of markings and numbers.
    This will make understanding easier. It is also very interesting to look at the marking of the caliber (cartridge used).
    But most of all I wonder what this hole is for. Original rifles do not have this hole.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Opera Снимок_2020-07-03_195840_forums.gunboards.com.png 
Views:	8 
Size:	727.3 KB 
ID:	3683107

  26. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimitriy View Post
    I don’t know what the experts will say)) I can say that the question is not when WW1 ended. The contract for the supply of Winchester M1895 rifles to Russia ended in 1917.
    I could be wrong, most likely "Frankenstein rifle". It is all assembled from different parts. All parts of the rifle have a different color and wooden and metal. That is, it is assembled from different parts. If it does not bother you, you could not take a photo of markings and numbers.
    This will make understanding easier. It is also very interesting to look at the marking of the caliber (cartridge used).
    But most of all I wonder what this hole is for. Original rifles do not have this hole.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Opera Снимок_2020-07-03_195840_forums.gunboards.com.png 
Views:	8 
Size:	727.3 KB 
ID:	3683107
    I am not an expert but I agree with you that the only logical explanation at this point that it is a "Frankenstein".

    Perhaps it could be worthwhile to contact the factory directly to see if they can help?

  27. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yuriman View Post
    I am not an expert but I agree with you that the only logical explanation at this point that it is a "Frankenstein".

    Perhaps it could be worthwhile to contact the factory directly to see if they can help?
    I've posted below a link to my Fototime site that provides pics of the numbering. I've disassembled the rifle, and and reassembling it now. From what I have found all of the major operating parts, as well as the barrel and barrel bands are numbered 18, which I assume is an assembly number of some sort. The receiver is numbered 14, with a late serial number. With the late serial number however, both the receiver and the barrel are stamped with the Russian Army acceptance mark. The butt plate and slide are stamped 1. The butt stock has no acceptance mark, and was polyurethaned, which I have removed. It also looks to have been sanded at some point as the tang metal is quite proud over the wood. The upper hand guard had been sanded, but it may be original as the inside is dark walnut and stamped with the number '5'.There are other parts numbered 18 but I don't want to disassemble the thing again to take photos. The action operates smoothly and flawlessly. I'm wondering if this might have been a Russian arsenal rework at some point, rather than your typical Frankenstonian Bubba job. As for the hole, I do think Bubba was at work there. The hole is threaded. Since the finger lever pin stop screw was missing, Bubba may have tried to drill and tap for a scope mount using the small hole he tapped and the larger pin stop screw hole for the mount screws. In any case, I have plugged the hole and am waiting for the pin stop screw to arrive.

    Here is the link:
    http://www.fototime.com/inv/041FB08E57F1ED7

    BTW, thanks for all your comments, guys! This is super interesting stuff.

    Greg

  28. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Still waiting for the retainer screw and a pin, but here's a pic of the cleaned and restored rifle.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_E4419.jpg 
Views:	114 
Size:	599.2 KB 
ID:	3684697

  29. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    2,461

    Default

    The scabbard is extremely similar to the Remington Rollingblock Long scabbard. (will fit and look great.0
    As far as I know, there have never been any repros made for either the Winchester or Remington., and the scabbards are scarcer than the bayonets. It may be a long hunt........

  30. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,721

    Default

    Before you go and plug the hole for good, you should check if that was not a factory alteration. My 1895 (30-40 Krag) has a Lyman 21 receiver sight in that position. Did Winchester use a commercial receiver to fill the russian order?

  31. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    2,232

    Default

    These rifles have been in circulation since the end of WW1--so, my guess is that the rifle was previously altered by a private owner at some point, who had an aftermarket receiver sight installed just in front of the clip guide--and/or possibly a side mount for an offset scope, or even--two different receiver sights, installed at different times. It is amazing that it still is reasonably intact, esp. still having the stripper clip guide still in place.
    Regardless, these are rare beasts in the US.
    "No Anchovies? You got the wrong man, I spell my name Danger!" (Click)

  32. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Last week I received my copy of Rob Kassab & Brad Dunbar's book Winchester Model 1895: Last of the Classic Lever Actions, Buffalo Cove Publishing LLC, 2019. For those who appreciate this model, I highly recommend the book. There are 423 glossy pages filled with beautiful color images, historic documents and detailed information about this very interesting model. For those on this thread, there are 26 picture and information packed pages about the Russian Contract model. Most of the photos are from Eastern European museums that I had not seen before. It's an incredible read and addition to your reference collection, well worth the price. Something I thought interesting is a pic of the sling connections for the Russian contract, specifically the clip that was issued to attach the sling to the stacking swivel on the upper barrel band/bayonet lug when the sling was in parade position. This looks like it could be duplicated fairly easily for those who have attached a sling and give your rifle a more authentic look. Here's the pic.

    Attachment 3689049

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •