Real or Fake?
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Thread: Real or Fake?

  1. #1
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    Default Real or Fake?

    When I put together "The Type 38 Arisaka" book I included the weapon that appears in the attachment. I was assured that it was a real Chinese fabrication. As I work on the revised version of the book and never having encountered another example, I have become suspicious that this carbine is someone's Fantasy Rifle and the work of an American basement gunsmith.

    What do you think? I am tempted to drop it from the revised book. Or, if it is real, can some provide a decent set of color photos of an example?

    Opinions and help would be appreciated!

    Frank
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rearl or Fake.jpg  

    Francis C. Allan
    20 Courtney Place
    Palm Coast, FL 32137-8126
    (386) 445-4225

  2. #2
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    Really looking forward to the new book and interested in opinions on this rifle.

    Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever."
    -David St.Hubbins

  3. #3
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    Interesting, I would lean towards Chinese if only because we have more than one and the pattern appears the same. Also some work in the barrel and moving the swivel to the side. Makes perfect military sense with the new front sling attachment but I doubt bubba would go to that effort. Any sales records out there?

    Don

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  5. #4
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    Anytime frame for the revised book?

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    I wonder how hard it would be to make one. As a training rifle, it isn't absurd, similar to a Spanish FR7 and FR8.

    A bolt action SKS would be interesting though.

    Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever."
    -David St.Hubbins

  7. #6
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    I bid on one that looked just like that on Gunbroker about two years ago....recognized it from the example in your book. Seller had no idea what it was and I recall the title being something generic like “Japanese Rifle”. A few others must have seen the similar example in your book too as it went for more than I was willing to pay at the time (want to say $500-600?). Unfortunately I did not save photos of the auction.

  8. #7
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    Frank:

    They are the real deal. Back around ‘86 I recall sorting my way through bundles of Chinese imports, tied together with twine, and saw some really weird oddball guns, including the Arisaka conversions you mentioned and picture above. I remember Doss White’s description of the early Chinese imports in period issues of Banzai as “NRA Wretched” and in many cases that’s being charitable.

    In addition to the SKS bayonet attachment these rifles were converted to 7.62x39. There were also various Arisaka conversions to 8mm but I can’t remember whether any of the 8mm guns were equipped with the folding bayonets.
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

  9. #8
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    I will post here when the book is available, but it will not be soon. I still need a lot of photo work to do, just like trying to replace these two photos. The fellow who sent those two pictures in is long gone to the great gun show in the sky. Also, Doss had several examples that I have not seen since he passed on. Still searching.

    Frank
    Francis C. Allan
    20 Courtney Place
    Palm Coast, FL 32137-8126
    (386) 445-4225

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis C. Allan View Post
    I will post here when the book is available, but it will not be soon. I still need a lot of photo work to do, just like trying to replace these two photos. The fellow who sent those two pictures in is long gone to the great gun show in the sky. Also, Doss had several examples that I have not seen since he passed on. Still searching.

    Frank
    May your search go well on your behalf.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddyofurniture View Post
    May your search go well on your behalf.
    We all look forward to the next book, God speed. Hope you are well.

  12. #11
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    Frank,
    I think you might want to see this video. He talks about your Chinese Modified Arisaka.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0jXikIQw0

    Dwight

  13. #12
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    Is this what you wanted. If it is check out this site, https://www.forgottenweapons.com/rif...-in-7-62x39mm/

    Dwight
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Converted Arisaka 1.jpg  


  14. #13
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    Frank,
    This a lot better image.
    Dwight





    Quote Originally Posted by Francis C. Allan View Post
    When I put together "The Type 38 Arisaka" book I included the weapon that appears in the attachment. I was assured that it was a real Chinese fabrication. As I work on the revised version of the book and never having encountered another example, I have become suspicious that this carbine is someone's Fantasy Rifle and the work of an American basement gunsmith.

    What do you think? I am tempted to drop it from the revised book. Or, if it is real, can some provide a decent set of color photos of an example?

    Opinions and help would be appreciated!

    Frank
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Converted Arisaka 2.jpg  


  15. #14
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    Dear Dwight:

    OK, I am convinced they are real.

    For some reason I cannot the open the pictures although I can see them. If they are yours can you send them to my e-mail address? Thank you!!.

    Frank
    Francis C. Allan
    20 Courtney Place
    Palm Coast, FL 32137-8126
    (386) 445-4225

  16. #15
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    Frank Images sent to your email address. If you want all of them call me. Number sent through PM.
    Did you watch the video???? He talks about a lot of modifications to the Type 38 by the Chinese.
    Dwight
    kaydee

  17. #16
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    they are the real deal, please include them in the new book. remember that when you are at war WAST NOT WANT NOT!! and never say never! we all know what happens when we say that-then the other shoe drops!

  18. #17
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    I never doubted they were real. Curious as to timeline. Any documented Vietnam bring backs? When did China SKS start production? Just how post war will the revised addition cover?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jareth View Post
    I never doubted they were real. Curious as to timeline. Any documented Vietnam bring backs? When did China SKS start production? Just how post war will the revised addition cover?
    I have never seen a Arisaka/SKS bayonet conversion that I knew or suspected to be a Vietnam bringback. I do however have one of the Chinese shortened Type 38 7.62x39mm conversions that was captured and brought back from Vietnam. No trophy papers but I know it to be a bringback. I just know it.







    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

  20. #19
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    Dear Richard in NY:

    I have one of those also. I was recently in contact with another collector who has one too. His has what appear to be two rods inserted under the barrel step that were ground flush, presumably to hold the chamber insert in place??? Mine does not have anything like that. The next time you have this one apart take a look under your barrel chamber. It would be interesting to see how common that is.

    I talked to a fellow at a gun show once who fired his and the insert came loose. I guess the inserted rods would hold the insert in place.

    Hummm.....

    Frank
    Francis C. Allan
    20 Courtney Place
    Palm Coast, FL 32137-8126
    (386) 445-4225

  21. #20
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    I saw at a show in Connecticut a cut down type 38 import rifle that was rechambered to 7.62 x 39 with a plastic insert in the mag to red the shorter round.

    It had a cut down mag follower as well.

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    I have never seen a Arisaka/SKS bayonet conversion that I knew or suspected to be a Vietnam bringback. I do however have one of the Chinese shortened Type 38 7.62x39mm conversions that was captured and brought back from Vietnam. No trophy papers but I know it to be a bringback. I just know it.
    How is the magazine conversion done in this example? Is the barrel a SKS barrel?

  23. #22
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    Most mag conversions have an insert (wood/metal/plastic) in the front portion of the magazine. I have a 1916 Spanish Mauser with a 7.62x39 chamber insert (rechambered .308 rifle). I made a wood insert based on what I saw for Chinese conversions of other bolt rifles. Chamber insert is held in with permanent loc-tite. My wood magazine insert was epoxied in, but breaks loose. May have to pin it buy drilling a small hole in the side of the mag well...

  24. #23
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    Thanks! I also read that the SKS barrel was used for the normal looking conversion, but the barrel profile looks different. The gas port is another problem.

  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporter90 View Post
    How is the magazine conversion done in this example? Is the barrel a SKS barrel?
    Sporter:

    I have never disassembled my rifle to examine the barrel contours closely but from all outward appearances I believe it to be an original Arisaka 6.5mm barrel that was rechambered and rebored for the 7.62x39mm cartridge.
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

  26. #25
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    Thanks for the reply. Even without looking the inside, the exposed front of the barrel has a slight taper. Where the SKS barrel is straight.

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    The Thai did a Type 38 conversion to clone the USM1 carbine. I posted in the Mauser forum, because other Siamese rifles are discussed there. Maybe I should have posted here? Anyway, if not already included, these seem appropriate for the conversion chapter of the book. Or if broken down by Chinese and Thai, then the later.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A_right.JPG  

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  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by fourbore View Post
    The Thai did a Type 38 conversion to clone the USM1 carbine. I posted in the Mauser forum, because other Siamese rifles are discussed there. Maybe I should have posted here? Anyway, if not already included, these seem appropriate for the conversion chapter of the book. Or if broken down by Chinese and Thai, then the later.
    Frank did a complete section on the Thai usage of these firearms and included the Siamese Type 2466 Rifle in the original book

    Patrick
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014


  29. #28
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    That makes me one more who is looking forward to the next revision.

  30. #29
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    Interesting! You didn't say specifically, but since 7.62x39 conversions were being discussed, I assume the Thai carbine is 7.62x39? Obviously not .30 Carbine sine it's an Arisaka action, and I don't think it would be fun to shoot that cut down light weight carbine with a full power Arisaka round -- not if it's anything near a Mosin-Nagant M38/M44 Carbine!

  31. #30
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    Dear farna:

    The two Thai carbines - police and army - remained in 6.5x50SR, which is a better cartridge than the .30 cal carbine.

    I know that the Thais re-loaded 6.5mm Japanese cartridges, but I have never been able to determine if made completely new cartridges. I'd love to find that out. Anyone have an idea????

    Frank
    Francis C. Allan
    20 Courtney Place
    Palm Coast, FL 32137-8126
    (386) 445-4225

  32. #31
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    Then those little carbines had a bit of kick to them! The Arisaka round isn't quite as powerful as the Mosin-Nagant's 7.62x54R, but in a light short barreled carbine it should still kick a good bit.

  33. #32
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    The Chinese conversion didn't bother with the sights. This to my mind is an indication that the conversion was done at a lower level of repair shop or depot. And, it was not widespread.

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