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Thread: PU junk

  1. #1
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    Default PU junk

    I check the auction sites on occasion for PU snipers. Found another turd tonight; not to unusual lately! Another green blanket special

    What I found most interesting was the sellers addition of Vic's name and a picture from his site being used to help move this turd along. I sent the seller a message asking if it was a factory issued PU as it looked like a (me being nice here) "repro" to me. I mentioned that maybe he should send his photos over to Vic for authentication since he referenced Vic and his material.

    A quote from part of the sellers impressive data on this historic 1942 PU sniper!

    "The scope is in perfect optical and mechanical condition.. All numbers matching, factory serialized scope and mount. Picture #20 for EXAMPLE ONLY!!!!!! this rifle from Vic Thomas web side!!!!!! AS IS, No Refund or Exchange!!!"

    Well at least he gave Vic credit for his picture; sort of.

    PA
    Last edited by limpetmine; 07-07-2020 at 07:39 PM. Reason: keep title clean
    Interested in buying a factory original Izhevsk PU sniper with original wartime matched scope. Long shot but a guy can dream!

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    I hope those that read that response understand what kind of ethics they are dealing with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAshutr3 View Post
    Found another turd tonight; not to unusual lately! Another green blanket special
    Great catch! Now, to save this for the future so everyone can see, the rifle PAshutr3 is talking about it is being sold by Gunbroker member myd1951 on July 7th, 2020. It is a fake PU sniper, advertised as real with "all matching numbers", it's a 1942 Izhevsk, serial number ЖУ 4122

    Here are a couple of photos from the seller (as of 7/7/2020):


    The receiver:



    "Matching" mount and scope






    The same seller bough this rifle, as a regular 91/30, on June 14th, 2020. This time however, it was a regular 91/30. Couple of photos and auction link as proof:

    Auction link: https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/868389098


    Original auction image, showing the same serial number (but less of that cyanide red paint!)





    Finally, the bid history




    Thanks for posting PAshutr3, BUSTED!!!!!!!

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  5. #4
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    Oh, almost forgot


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    What an idiot to sell a rifle set up as sniper rifle only half a month later. Good that he got busted and pictures got saved here.

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    It would be nice if someone could contact the poor soul that bought the fake sniper and let he know how ho got a shovel full....

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    Why it's important to know what you're looking at and doing your research before clicking bid if you don't.
    I get excited anytime I see 1942 and PU mentioned in a title, but never get my hopes up because 9 times out of 10 it's usually a clone.
    Jack of all milsurps, master of none.

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    What a crook. He went so far as to scrub the CAI import markings off the receiver, which are very obvious in the original auction photos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITWORKEDOUT View Post
    It would be nice if someone could contact the poor soul that bought the fake sniper and let he know how ho got a shovel full....
    not yet sold
    ____________________________________

    If it's Made in Russia and original, I'll buy it)

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    Just checked his (myd1951) recent feedback on his recent sales and my oh my. All fakes. One poor buyer left this comment:

    Rifle was exactly as described. Bought a real Russian PU 91/30 from a real Russian trucker. Very good experience overall.

    Little does he know
    ____________________________________

    If it's Made in Russia and original, I'll buy it)

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    Default strange markings

    Subscribing to the condemnation of the faker and his activity I'd like to ask a question concerning the strange markings on that 1942 Mosin rifle - the one right next to the Izhevsk "logo". It seems to be put there later, not during the production period and proof procedure at the factory but what exactly is it?

    I'm aksing because I found something similar on my Tula SKS ( late 50s refurb ). The shape is similar. I wonder what could it be?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Весло с ПСО-1

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    This clown was buying quite a few ex snipers from CDI before the fire and turning them into "original snipers".






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    Look how many other snipers he sold in the last several year wonder how many were humped up.////

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    Subscribing to the condemnation of the faker and his activity I'd like to ask a question concerning the strange markings on that 1942 Mosin rifle - the one right next to the Izhevsk "logo". It seems to be put there later, not during the production period and proof procedure at the factory but what exactly is it?

    I'm aksing because I found something similar on my Tula SKS ( late 50s refurb ). The shape is similar. I wonder what could it be?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It's a post war refurb depot marking that belongs to a base in Serdobsk, a district base of the Priuralskiy military district

    A great chart showing the markings is here: https://www.m9130.info/repair-depot-markings
    Last edited by Jimja; 07-08-2020 at 12:46 PM. Reason: new information

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimja;103664
    81
    Perfect!!!!!! I’m glad to see more fakers called out on their BS.

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    He used to at least make these out of ex-snipers. This one is a regular infantry rifle. If you look at pic number 14 in the listing, he stamped his scope serial over the (K) proof, which of course isn't even on a real sniper.






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    Send the link to the site owners..... what a scumbag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimja View Post
    It's a post war refurb depot marking that belongs to a base in Serdobsk, a district base of the Priuralskiy military district

    A great chart showing the markings is here: https://www.m9130.info/repair-depot-markings
    Thank you very much for the answer and link. It is a great site indeed.
    Весло с ПСО-1

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    What a scumbag. An Ohio resident, too. I always add these fraudsters to my blocked bidder list when they are discovered. I have a whole list of fraudsters and problem bidders on Gunbroker. Buyer beware when it comes to these folks:


    Click image for larger version. 

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  22. #21
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    Jimja,

    Nice work tracing this one back; I couldn't tell for sure in his historic sniper ad if there use to be CAI markings on it or not. Also looks like he mangled the serial number on the scope somehow. Might be my eyes or a bad pic though.

    Yes he has crafted several green blanket specials in the last year or so with his electro pen and Harbor Freight stamp kit. A true scum bag; he has far surpassed the old humper from Eagle ID. Humpty Dummy sure has been busy; no time to respond to my question!

    If he removed the CAI stamped serial number I'm sure the ATF won't be too happy with his new creation!
    Last edited by PAshutr3; 07-08-2020 at 06:52 PM.
    Interested in buying a factory original Izhevsk PU sniper with original wartime matched scope. Long shot but a guy can dream!

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    I’m sure the dirt bag got the hint, the auction was pulled. Based on his recent buyer feedback he bought a 1942 Tula 91/30 so expect to see a “new” sniper soon. SN 3B 461 - easier to find in a search than the proper Cyrillic letters.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872808882

  24. #23
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    Thanks I saved a pic of the 42 Tula. $1600 must be a lucky number for this fool. He has done very well with that as a starting bid. Took the last quy not once but twice with his Harbor Freight specials.
    Interested in buying a factory original Izhevsk PU sniper with original wartime matched scope. Long shot but a guy can dream!

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    I emailed him too: "Do you really think nobody will realize you bought this rifle a month ago as a non-sniper?" What an idiot. Even a dumb crook would wait at least until the old listing expired before trying to flip his humped up turd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjxlr8 View Post
    What a scumbag. An Ohio resident, too. I always add these fraudsters to my blocked bidder list when they are discovered. I have a whole list of fraudsters and problem bidders on Gunbroker. Buyer beware when it comes to these folks:


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Nice third party seller vetting!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwagon View Post
    I emailed him too: "Do you really think nobody will realize you bought this rifle a month ago as a non-sniper?" What an idiot. Even a dumb crook would wait at least until the old listing expired before trying to flip his humped up turd.
    Nothing new for this seller to have the previous "incarnation" of his "original sniper" listings still showing on his bought history. Saw it multiple times when he was getting most of his ex PUs from CDI a couple years ago. I believe I still have some screencaps if I can dig them up.






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    When in doubt.. import markings. Some of them make it a lot easier to verify things than others.
    Anything century marked, or not marked at all, you should be very careful in vetting.

    It's a shame, but PU snipers will one day be like K98K rifles, Enfield snipers, Arisaka snipers.. really any WW2 sniper is bringing $4000+ now. And arguably more of those were imported or brought back! (I'm not sure of the numbers of legitimate PU snipers brought in). With that price slowly creeping up, in come the humpers, just like with all the others.
    Jack of all milsurps, master of none.

  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimja View Post
    It's a post war refurb depot marking that belongs to a base in Serdobsk, a district base of the Priuralskiy military district

    A great chart showing the markings is here: https://www.m9130.info/repair-depot-markings
    According to new Chumak's book it's Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine
    ____________________________________

    If it's Made in Russia and original, I'll buy it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlin View Post
    According to new Chumak's book it's Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine
    That's what I thought at first and originally posted, but Alex corrected me. The two symbols are very close (hexagon with two lines vs hexagon with one line), the chart on the m9130 site was updated.

    I'm sure Alex will post and clear it up

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    In this day and age of prevalent and often unwarranted shaming on social media, the fraudster assembling these fakes deserved to be outed and condemned on every forum or web site visited by those who are interested in Russian sniper rifles. He should be followed and confronted wherever and whenever he has the temerity to make his presence known. His conduct is inexcusable.

    The subject of fake snipers takes me back to the days when the so-called “ex-snipers” we’re first imported in quantity. Perhaps twenty years ago? I ruffled more than a few feathers when I argued that the then burgeoning practice of re-snipering the now standard 91/30 rifles was a bad idea that would inevitably cause problems concerning authenticity down the road. But that was OK then (and continues to be now) because sometimes feathers need ruffling.

    The fake PU snipers assembled by Century in the early ‘90s are easy to recognize being assembled on incorrectly dated barrels and having Finn markings and (often) furniture. With only minimal experience and research even beginners can spot these fakes.

    The re-snipered PU fakes, and yes, in my opinion these “snipers” no matter how good the underlying intentions, are indeed fake, can be much more difficult to identify when assembled by a skilled craftsman. The end result is that some snipers that are 100% right as rain have been questioned and many of the fakes are accepted as real.

    There have even been statements made that the only way to identify an authentic PU sniper is if it is accompanied by a receipt from a known seller of original pieces such as the “RGuns” imports. This “no receipt not a real PU” line of thinking is just another version of “no papers, not a bringback” that many internet experts say control the market for Vietnam artifacts.

    Both of these nuggets of wisdom tend to be voiced by those without much experience who believe that if they can't discern good from bad in the absence of magic papers then no one can.

    Simpleminded groupthink annoys me greatly.

    It shouldn’t take a Nostradamus level of prognosticative abilities to predict that injecting reproductions/fakes into the market, especially those well-crafted, is going to create confusion and devalue authentic pieces. With that said I recall sensing that my negative opinion on this subject was very much in the minority years ago.

    All these years later can anyone honestly say that the re-sniper craze has not roiled the PU market? It seems clear to me that damage has been done but the practice still seems to be widely supported. Suffice it to say that two decades ago I couldn’t figure out why making reproduction snipers was so widely accepted and here and now in 2020 not much has changed.

    It should be noted that there are a number of serious collectors who I like and respect that have “restored” Russian sniper rifles, primarily PE and PEM models that are otherwise essentially unavailable, and the fact that they disagree with my opinion on this matter doesn’t cause me to like or respect them any less. Hopefully those on the other side of this issue can say the same about me.
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    In this day and age of prevalent and often unwarranted shaming on social media, the fraudster assembling these fakes deserved to be outed and condemned on every forum or web site visited by those who are interested in Russian sniper rifles. He should be followed and confronted wherever and whenever he has the temerity to make his presence known. His conduct is inexcusable.

    The subject of fake snipers takes me back to the days when the so-called “ex-snipers” we’re first imported in quantity. Perhaps twenty years ago? I ruffled more than a few feathers when I argued that the then burgeoning practice of re-snipering the now standard 91/30 rifles was a bad idea that would inevitably cause problems concerning authenticity down the road. But that was OK then (and continues to be now) because sometimes feathers need ruffling.
    I agree completely agree with Richard. The best way to protect our hobby is by outing the fakers. We do ourselves no favors by protecting them. And even those here among us that fake stuff need to be outed.

    Also, the reasons Richard has stated are why I collect factory original Russian rifles. Much, much hard to fake. Refurbs show a wide variety of numbering and practices. It can be tough to determine what is legit and what was done state side. This is just my personal collecting preference. I don't want to belittle anyone who wants to collect refurbished rifles. To each his own.

  33. #32
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    Noticed this 1942 PU just closed. Thoughts?
    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/873480125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysonic View Post
    Noticed this 1942 PU just closed. Thoughts?
    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/873480125
    It's at least an ex-sniper. I'm not 100% sure, but IMO that's just what it is: an ex-PU that's been rescoped with an original scope and mount.

    I'm not crazy about the bolt handle for one thing. The pics aren't clear enough and high enough resolution to say for sure.






  35. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    In this day and age of prevalent and often unwarranted shaming on social media, the fraudster assembling these fakes deserved to be outed and condemned on every forum or web site visited by those who are interested in Russian sniper rifles. He should be followed and confronted wherever and whenever he has the temerity to make his presence known. His conduct is inexcusable.

    The subject of fake snipers takes me back to the days when the so-called “ex-snipers” we’re first imported in quantity. Perhaps twenty years ago? I ruffled more than a few feathers when I argued that the then burgeoning practice of re-snipering the now standard 91/30 rifles was a bad idea that would inevitably cause problems concerning authenticity down the road. But that was OK then (and continues to be now) because sometimes feathers need ruffling.

    The fake PU snipers assembled by Century in the early ‘90s are easy to recognize being assembled on incorrectly dated barrels and having Finn markings and (often) furniture. With only minimal experience and research even beginners can spot these fakes.

    The re-snipered PU fakes, and yes, in my opinion these “snipers” no matter how good the underlying intentions, are indeed fake, can be much more difficult to identify when assembled by a skilled craftsman. The end result is that some snipers that are 100% right as rain have been questioned and many of the fakes are accepted as real.

    There have even been statements made that the only way to identify an authentic PU sniper is if it is accompanied by a receipt from a known seller of original pieces such as the “RGuns” imports. This “no receipt not a real PU” line of thinking is just another version of “no papers, not a bringback” that many internet experts say control the market for Vietnam artifacts.

    Both of these nuggets of wisdom tend to be voiced by those without much experience who believe that if they can't discern good from bad in the absence of magic papers then no one can.

    Simpleminded groupthink annoys me greatly.

    It shouldn’t take a Nostradamus level of prognosticative abilities to predict that injecting reproductions/fakes into the market, especially those well-crafted, is going to create confusion and devalue authentic pieces. With that said I recall sensing that my negative opinion on this subject was very much in the minority years ago.

    All these years later can anyone honestly say that the re-sniper craze has not roiled the PU market? It seems clear to me that damage has been done but the practice still seems to be widely supported. Suffice it to say that two decades ago I couldn’t figure out why making reproduction snipers was so widely accepted and here and now in 2020 not much has changed.

    It should be noted that there are a number of serious collectors who I like and respect that have “restored” Russian sniper rifles, primarily PE and PEM models that are otherwise essentially unavailable, and the fact that they disagree with my opinion on this matter doesn’t cause me to like or respect them any less. Hopefully those on the other side of this issue can say the same about me.
    Good work to all who outed this A. mole. Zeebill gets a gold star for predicting this. I never thought faking PUs was worth the time and money. There are plenty to buy that are legit and it is not rocket science to find them.

    Another gold star to Richard, and I regret I can not name all good guys like Matt and Caleb and many others. Thanks to Richard understanding we get a restored PE or PEM or get nothing. Always assume a PEM or PE is restored until proven otherwise. That is the only safe approach.

  36. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike radford View Post
    Good work to all who outed this A. mole. Zeebill gets a gold star for predicting this. I never thought faking PUs was worth the time and money. There are plenty to buy that are legit and it is not rocket science to find them.

    Another gold star to Richard, and I regret I can not name all good guys like Matt and Caleb and many others. Thanks to Richard understanding we get a restored PE or PEM or get nothing. Always assume a PEM or PE is restored until proven otherwise. That is the only safe approach.
    A fraudster who is buying ex-PUs (or in this case just a plain old infantry rifle) for $350 or less and a scope setup for maybe $400 or a little over, then selling the completed "original sniper" for over $1600 is making a pretty tidy little ill-gained profit. Given that the PU is a pretty low-tech, simple setup, a person who knows their way around basic welding and metal working can do the actual work in probably a couple of hours. Of course, there would be more time involved if they were actually setting it up to shoot correctly, but something tells me that isn't high on the priority list of charlatans.






  37. #36
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    1. Thanks to all who uncovered this nefarious fake sniper rifle and seller.

    2. The warnings long ago by ZeeBill and Richard in NY have proven true: we now have too many
    fake PU snipers which impacts on credibility of honest legit PU sniper rifles.

    3. Collectors and buyers of German sniper rifles long ago gave waivers for ex sniper rifles that were restored
    with period correct parts...on par with the CMP groupies who make M1 Rifles"Correct" and the defense was
    the rifles are not "original" but are "correct". No one ever discusses authentic as a descriptive and honestly,
    if its authentic, its not the sum of its parts but its as made when it left the factory or left military service. We never
    distilled down to authentic being used on PU snipers.

    4. I agree this is a mess but I will say that there is somewhat of a wild card situation that is legit up to a point. The Vintage Sniper Matches (I call them the scoped surplus rifle matches) at CMP allowed for the creation in the market of 03A3 rifles to be
    scoped with repro mounts & optics and these Gibbs, Creedmoor, James River fantasy (a4 forgery slang on CMP) rifles are used in these events due to the shortage of real A4's for competition. Value of such rifles started at $800 and now push over $1400 which keeps on climbing (and pushes value of real A4's even higher). Full Disclosure: I own a Gibbs for such competition and with its barrel showing a 2011 date, not likely after I croak it will surface as a real A4 on resale market.

    5. The PU sniper has not grown in value because faked or restored PU snipers have entered the resale market like the case of A4 rifles. Prices have climbed for PU but before the Molot imports, they were $900 and higher so we have progressed very little beyond that price value for a real PU these days.

    6. Full disclosure, I built a ex PU back with original wartime parts for Vintage Sniper Match competition so as to not shoot my original PU to death. Today if I sold it , it would bring about as much as I sunk into it 8 yrs ago if it would sell at all on these boards. Its a $675 rifle at any gun show around here and there are details of this rifle that are a dead give away its not authentic, original or correct but sadly in the hands of a greedy SOB seller, it could easily snooker a novice PU buyer. The solution is to sell off its WWII original Soviet scope & mount, sell the bolt and restore it to a 91/30 again that once was a PU sniper. I'd make more money doing that and not add to the problem , that is my intent .

    7. I 'll throw a brick into someones punch bowl ...the famous Samco Scopeless Snipers which many scope and then everyone gives a pass to. If you are going to hold a yard stick of ethics up.....they are what they are....RE Snipered Ex Yugo snipers. Don't be issuing waivers...they are not a legit Yugo Sniper. In fact they are no more legit than my re snipered 91/30.

    I think the fact is.....is a PU sniper authentic and if not , its not . Thats the yardstick and scale that ought to be used.

    and Please, lets not dissolve back to the R Guns PU Snipers are the standard of legitimacy thing. That was the R Guns PU owners trying to keep value of their rifles up when the Molot PU snipers were imported. A real PU sniper does not get legitimacy on seller or importer, it stands for itself as being the real deal or not.
    Last edited by milprileb; 07-12-2020 at 05:10 AM.

  38. #37
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    Shame to see him still in operation, he's been a fixture at Northern Ohio gun shows for years. His fakes have improved since I first saw one about 12 years ago, I realized who he was a few years back when I recognized a fake PEM sniper listed on GB as one I'd handled a week earlier at the Medina show. I'd love to out him by name but I honestly don't know what it is, he's just one of those dealers I've learned to avoid when passing by his table.

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