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84/98 sawback

3K views 12 replies 5 participants last post by  staffy 
#1 ·


My latest bayonet...a half decent 84/98 sawback model.There's traces of paint around the frog stud on the scabbard which I hope is original!..there's no date stamp or royal cipher on the spine of the blade (which I believe is not uncommon....so is there a way to date this bayonet?)
The saw teeth are in good condition...not mashed up and still quite sharp!....there are two different regimental stamps on the cross guard...really hoping someone can tell me what they are please!
 
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#8 ·
More real its a Festung when F there.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/XVI._Armee-Korps_(Deutsches_Kaiserreich)
Should be here looked for the real unit and their parts.
Jeff Noll's book.
Andy is absolutely right. F for Feld applies in the pre-1909 regulations, but for the 1909 regulations as used in WW1 and in connectiom with a MGK it stands for Festungs. Jeff's book is broadly speaking correct in most of its identifications, but fails in several instances to observe the different regulations which applied from the 1870's onwards, with slightly different sets for Prussia and the rest of the Reich and for Bavaria.

Julian
 
#9 ·
OK I will give it a stab towards the second half of 1915 flash guards began to appear. Yours has one. Beginning 1916 The Germans issued an order to stop using unit marks. They realized the British and French were using it for good intel from captured weapons. But a lot of German units continued the practice anyway. But after 1917 fewer weapons and gear were found with unit marks. I believe as 1917/1918 became more dire a lot of procedures were bypassed. Such as inspection stamps and dates. Also in 1917 the Germans issued an order to remove saw back teeth off bayonets which was largely ignored. Due to the problem of any German soldier caught with a saw back bayonet were shot. So I think your 84/98 was probably made in 1916/1917 time frame. Some manufactures made only a limited amount of 84/98's with saw back teeth. Which would also help date it. But I don't have that info.
1) Flashguards were indeed introduced in mid-1915 for these short bayonets, for other bayonets the order was issued in the autumn that year (we are re-arranging things at home as otherwise I could give you actual dates of the orders about this!)

2) The German regulations are specific: officially NO unit marks were used once hostilities commenced, as their official purpose was to identify which wapon belonged to which soldier in those units that were 'in service', as it were. However, it is clear that many were marked after August 1914 which is why as Orcutt indicates, a follow-up order (not an original order) was issued in 1916 reminding unit armourers of this. As far as I can recall it had nothing to do with any potential intel value: a captured German's unit's identity could be ascertained by his shoulder straps and/or his pay book. They continue to appear into 1918, but seem to be more usual by then on revolvers and pistols than bayonets.

3) Unitmarking might have slowed down by 1917, but not inspection and official state / year marking which continues into 1918. So, what have we here? Well, a hint as to why this one and so many others of its type, plus a fair few 98/05's lack state and date marks, is simply the chaotic state the German armaments industry was in during late 1914-early 1915. Over a million bayonets were urgently needed (hence the 'Ersatz' bayonets), and first in line for production and distribution were short bayonets like this for use by cavalry units, which were ordered to be supplied with bayonets in - IIRC - December 1914. I believe that most of these S.84/98 and S/98/05 that lack state and year marks belong to that period. Can't prove it though!

4) The orders to stop making sawbacks and the removal of sawbacks from bayonets with them if in front-line service do indeed date to mid-late 1917. A Festungs unit would not necessarily have to comply with this order. I cannot agree with Orcutt that the order to remove saw back teeth off bayonets with them was largely ignored: it is true that proportionaly, more sawbacks survive than were ever issued, but that is because they were collectable.

5) There is no proof that a German soldier was shot if found carrying a sawback. The most famous rumour regarding this states that an entire platoon of the Füsilier-Regiment Nr. 73 equipped with sawback bayonets was shot after capture by the French, but no such incident is recorded in the regimental history (von Szczepanski 1923), nor in the memoirs of Ernst Jünger, the regiment’s most famous member. (For further information on sawbacks see my article: ‘Un engin de torture, une baïonnette à crochets;une arme blanche déshonorée’: an historical-archaeological evaluation of the Sawback bayonets of the Deutsches Heer', Journal of Conflict Archaeology, DOI: 10.1080/15740773.2019.1730074).

Hope all the above helps!

Julian
 
#7 ·
OK I will give it a stab towards the second half of 1915 flash guards began to appear. Yours has one. Beginning 1916 The Germans issued an order to stop using unit marks. They realized the British and French were using it for good intel from captured weapons. But a lot of German units continued the practice anyway. But after 1917 fewer weapons and gear were found with unit marks. I believe as 1917/1918 became more dire a lot of procedures were bypassed. Such as inspection stamps and dates. Also in 1917 the Germans issued an order to remove saw back teeth off bayonets which was largely ignored. Due to the problem of any German soldier caught with a saw back bayonet were shot. So I think your 84/98 was probably made in 1916/1917 time frame. Some manufactures made only a limited amount of 84/98's with saw back teeth. Which would also help date it. But I don't have that info.
 
#12 ·
I have the earlier version of that one mate! Copy 21, in fact, without the addendum on pistols!

I have the greatest respect for Jeff and his work. But the crucial element he failed to mention or make clear in his first and second edition was that there were some 12 sets of marking regulations issued between 1872 and 1909/1914. And each of these was modified while still in use - the copy of the 1909 edition I have for example - in use up to and during the early part of WW1 - has at least four major sets of alterations to the main text. So, to correctly identify a marking one has to look at the date of the weapon and the style of the marking to see which regulations apply. And it isn't always straightforward! Some S.1871 bayonets, for example, are marked 1909 style, which is interesting as this indicates they were not issued into service until after 1909... It also means, though, that while a regular 'F' on a weapon issued before 1909 could mean: "Feld, Franz, Fuesilier, Festungs, Fuss, Fuhrpark-Kolonne", the same letter on a weapon issued after 1909 can only mean "Fuesilier, Festungs, Fuss, Fuhrpark-Kolonne', Feld-haubitzer (munitions Kolonne)".

I have been compiling my own independent list of unit markings for some years but halted in 2017 when I had reached over 4,000 as I simply didn't have the time or energy to continue - a full time job plus two boys now aged 11 and 13. One day I'd like to get it into print with copies of the regulations as well...

Julian
 
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