Rifle lost in the mail, who loses?
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Thread: Rifle lost in the mail, who loses?

  1. #1
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    Default Rifle lost in the mail, who loses?

    Won an auction last month on gunbroker for a rifle in CT and things were going fine. Seller shipped USPS on the 12th and was scheduled for delivery on the 17th. Of course it was late, but tracking showed it going to the dreaded Jersey City hub, then left 'in transit', and has been in transit since, with no updates since 21 June. Seller contacted the post office who claims that it will still be delivered, and there is not enough transport, but haven't really given a proof of life that they actually have it.

    Trying to be patient, but at what point is this considered lost and reported to the police? Done deals for shipping around a hundred firearms over the years, and this is my first MIA rifle. Also have asked if seller insured the shipment, but haven't gotten an answer yet. I'm concerned it wasn't insured (as other sellers say they don't because it saves tons of money annually with volume sales). I haven't insured everything I've sent either.

    So should the seller refund me if it is Lost? I kind of expect to get screwed, but holding out hope.

    Interested in anyone's experience and advice.

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    It’s not yours till your in passion!
    sender is owner..he has legal claims to insurance..
    I lost a Heym..coming to me..he made more money insurance that I was given...(I had the deal)
    I even wanted the rifle broken stock and all...
    insurance company got it after payoff I guess?
    he got money,
    I got nothing...but my money back month later..
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    I'll bet it wasn't insured, at least for the full value of the selling price, and as such if there is no claim to be made, the seller will try to relieve himself of responsibility by claiming his account ability ended when the USPS received it. It's a sticky situation and one I've wondered about myself because the terms are rarely outlined clearly in most sales situations, leaving it open to dispute between the parties. How was the gun being transferred? It's shipping direct to you I assume it's either a C&R or antique?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwagon View Post
    I'll bet it wasn't insured, at least for the full value of the selling price, and as such if there is no claim to be made, the seller will try to relieve himself of responsibility by claiming his account ability ended when the USPS received it. It's a sticky situation and one I've wondered about myself because the terms are rarely outlined clearly in most sales situations, leaving it open to dispute between the parties. How was the gun being transferred? It's shipping direct to you I assume it's either a C&R or antique?
    seller needs to report it lost, not stolen, just lost, and provide the serial number to the ATF and whatever local authorities that require notification,

    I would not do this until after a few conversations with the local postmaster where it was mailed, and then the next person or 2 up the chain,


    hopefully it was insured for the full amount, and if so, start the claims process when you talk to the post master, and let him know that if not found in the time alloted (by the postoffice for claims) it will be reported to the ATF etc,
    what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

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    USPS insurance is very high compared to other shippers and many sellers tend to under insure or not insure at all.

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    My one similar incident in which I sent a rifle which stopped tracking for about two weeks, I told the post office that I would report it to the ATF, and the rifle miraculously began tracking again and was delivered within a few days. They said they found it in the corner of a room in the warehouse where it was last recorded (Kansas City).

    But if I didn't tell them that I was going to report it to the ATF, I don't think they were even going to bother to look.

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    Agree..ATF THREAT WORKS I over insured in the day, scared to loose ..
    back in gun list days..
    never had a problem till I quit..years..
    one guy went on vacation kept me hanging 5 weeks Texas..?
    decided he didn’t want it..?( spent money, I think on out of county vacation)
    Light weight steyr ziess scope, bock mts ..
    yes I took it back ...I had found another local..whom wanted it after I sold it..
    said if I got it back he’d give $ 150 more for it.? Sold.
    Last edited by DK PHILLIPS; 07-12-2020 at 10:43 AM.
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    Sent the seller an email suggesting he tell the post office he would elevate it to the ATF. Hope they can find it. Kind of a rare one, and totally useless for a common thief.

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    Please keep us informed. We ALL have skin in this game. Thanks.

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    If he offered you insurance and you turned it down, then it's on you.
    It sounds like he did not.. Honestly if I were in his position, I'd offer to refund you half. Since it's not your fault, but not his fault either.

    That said, its rare for a firearm to stay missing, especially if he had an ffl/C&R in the box with the rifle. A makarov went missing about 6 months ago, after 1 month of no updates we gave up on it. Sure enough I got a call from the postal inspectors office saying that it looked like the box and label got very wet but my FFL was inside and that's how they knew who to contact.
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    From Gunbroker:

    "The seller is responsible for making sure an item is delivered to a buyer. If the item is lost or damaged in shipping, the seller is responsible for refunding the buyer’s payment, whether or not the item was insured. We strongly recommend sellers insure all packages with the carrier."

    https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-...ed-in-Shipping

    Cass

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cass View Post
    From Gunbroker:

    "The seller is responsible for making sure an item is delivered to a buyer. If the item is lost or damaged in shipping, the seller is responsible for refunding the buyer’s payment, whether or not the item was insured. We strongly recommend sellers insure all packages with the carrier."

    https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-...ed-in-Shipping

    Cass
    As completing the following "general message", returning to find the above Post. With questions concerning that message. First, is the Gunbroker (GB) statement within "contractual terms" of using GB for sale of ithe item? "Highly recommended" not suggesting such!

    Almost surely such merely "advisory"; eye candy only. Even if "enforceable", question of enforcement by whom and for what purpose. Likely 'if enforceable', only by GB as part of spanking erranr sellers. Concept of creating a "third party enforceable claim"... Way more than unlikely! Far more likely, 'altruistic' advice. Nice 'eye candy' for potential bidders, from which to enhance 'warm & cozy' feeling concerning dealing through GB. And now, to my 'general comments'.

    ‘Normally’, the liability for a “lost” USPS package rests with the party “committing it” to the Post. Generally, that only makes sense. The “placing” responsibility, for compliance both with legal formalities and functional ones literally/physically… exclusively under sender control. His duty of “due diligence/reasonable care”. Further, his/her setting the sequence in motion, liability to remain so until, mail piece (package) , “delivered”. Nowadays, the strong “presumption of delivery” as the package is ‘shown as delivered” in Postal records and customer Internet resources.

    I would tend to believe the ultimate question of parcel “insurance” a matter of agreement between sender and recipient. (eBay contrary wtiht clear & seller enforceable rules.) An issue presumptively within Contract Law principles. Such ‘generally’, that without affirmative agreement, ‘no sender (seller) insurance obligation. That said, as indicated above, sender retaining the liability for loss pending “delivery”.

    The aside re “causation”: Some quarter century ago, as occasionally working/consulting with Postal Inspection Service (Federal Law Enforcement); to casually learn at that time… Primary causation for “lost mail”, address labels gone missing or becoming illegible. Fallen off, scraped off, destroyed; otherwise as impossible to complete delivery OR return to sender. One reason it’s particularly wise now, as then, to mark the exterior container itself; to include shipping document inside the package and in manner distinguishable from packing material.

    Last shoe: Practicality! Beyond the ‘ounce of loss prevention – insurance’; the real world. “Legal cases”, often failed when every point is on Plaintiff’s side. Defendant, cash in pocket, procrastination generally ‘paying big’! Small Claims Court an excepted in some states AND(whre parties within same State jurisdiction. Otherwise… Attorney/legal advice, “Federal Court Complaint” & process. Typically, nightmare! Considerable expenses; often beyond reasonable possible winning verdict. Interstate cases… Multiply negatives. Best course as ‘best efforts employed’;, resolve with other party!

    Personal Disclaimer. Never faced with such as above questions/issues of law. Never personal loss or personal occasion even to make “lost mail” claim. Never having mailed or directly received a firearm through the Post. Discussion above relating to principles relating generically, concerning general merchandise without special regulatory concerns. I’m unaware of any nuances in law or fact concerning firearms shipment. Likely many of you readers here, better informed. That said…NOTHING HERE IS OFFERED NOR TO BE TAKEN AS LEGAL ADVICE!
    Best! Keep safe!
    John
    Last edited by iskra; 07-12-2020 at 02:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    My one similar incident in which I sent a rifle which stopped tracking for about two weeks, I told the post office that I would report it to the ATF, and the rifle miraculously began tracking again and was delivered within a few days. They said they found it in the corner of a room in the warehouse where it was last recorded (Kansas City).

    But if I didn't tell them that I was going to report it to the ATF, I don't think they were even going to bother to look.
    Big plus 1 to this. I had the same thing. Shipped a rifle that wasn't tracking. Once I starting telling them that the ATF would be involved it showed up. Don't be a jerk with them but you certainly have to be very firm and direct. Good luck.

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    I wil never ever never ever ship a rifle any way other than USPS Registered Mail. EVERY SINGLE person who touches the package must sign for it. It simply CANNOT disappear because it travels outside of the normal mail stream and is entirely processed by hand. It is also always under lock and key. It absolutely astounds me that people ship rifles any other way. Yes, it costs more but it is the absolute safest way to mail.

    I wish you luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWilhelm View Post
    I wil never ever never ever ship a rifle any way other than USPS Registered Mail. EVERY SINGLE person who touches the package must sign for it. It simply CANNOT disappear because it travels outside of the normal mail stream and is entirely processed by hand. It is also always under lock and key. It absolutely astounds me that people ship rifles any other way. Yes, it costs more but it is the absolute safest way to mail.

    I wish you luck.

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    ATF gets people’s attention... soo here is what Msniper19 told them at the post office.... uhhhh rifle needs to be found because, heaven forbid it’s used for something nefarious, “I” do not want the police coming after me.... there are tapes in post offices that record coming and going of folks.... should be easy to find... if not then we will have to contact ATF via the post master.. government doesn’t like problems... so someone seems to find it when you make a stink. As Matt said don’t be mean. Just proactive. Btw my rifle showed up 2 weeks later.

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    This happened to me a couple months ago, I opened a lost mail claim with the post office and it did eventually show up. Rifle came out of Washington, they said lack of employees due to coronavirus is causing delays. Took about a month to get it. Tracking showed it sitting in the same place for a couple weeks then it got delivered. I bet you end up with it, I wouldn't worry too much.
    i like old military pugs and rifles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWilhelm View Post
    I wil never ever never ever ship a rifle any way other than USPS Registered Mail. EVERY SINGLE person who touches the package must sign for it. It simply CANNOT disappear because it travels outside of the normal mail stream and is entirely processed by hand. It is also always under lock and key. It absolutely astounds me that people ship rifles any other way. Yes, it costs more but it is the absolute safest way to mail.

    I wish you luck.
    My experience with the USPS is that it's now full of incompetent people. It has some very competent people too but now they are now in the minority numbers. Most of the better employees have been there a long time.
    I sold an expensive target rifle sling to a gentleman in the UK. We agreed that he would send me cash via USPS Certified Mail. Well, everything went smooth in the British Mail service as it was supposed to be tracked right up into the New York USPS. Once the money arrived in the NY City USPS it disappeared.USPS had no record of it after they took the handoff from the British Mail service. After informing the buyer we mutually agreed to cancel the sale and he would file a claim with the British mail service. They sent me some claim papers which I was happy to fill out and they refunded his money to them. When I contacted the USPS originally they were disinterested even though it was in their Certified Mail system.

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    Ruined labels is always a possibility, and there may be no documentation inside the box.

    Inkjet printers often (usually - always?) print labels that are ruined if wet, even under tape. After a couple of months, I had two packages from the same day returned to me with horribly blurred labels from rain or a spill. Since then, I also stick a waterproof address label above the printed label. The good news is I've sent and received over a thousand packages on eBay and they all eventually arrived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    My one similar incident in which I sent a rifle which stopped tracking for about two weeks, I told the post office that I would report it to the ATF, and the rifle miraculously began tracking again and was delivered within a few days. They said they found it in the corner of a room in the warehouse where it was last recorded (Kansas City).

    But if I didn't tell them that I was going to report it to the ATF, I don't think they were even going to bother to look.
    I had a pistol coming by USPS. No one is around on Saturday and that was when the carrier left a notice that an attempted delivery was made and that I could pick up the package at the Post Office on Monday. Monday, went to the Post Office & was told that they could not find it & would check look around to for it. Went back on Tuesday & was told that the package had been delivered (not withstanding the fact that the notice to pick if up had been left). I told them that I would be back Wednesday morning & if the package was not there, I was going to call ATF. Funny thing - I found another notice of the package being held for pickup - except this time the notice was in my PO Box. The box looked like it had been opened and resealed.
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    I just had the "fun" of having a rifle lost for almost 3 weeks. And it was the SSG82 Sniper! I was able to track it "UPS" until it hit the local distribution center. Then no updates. I called in to UPS and they said it's on the way still. I didn't buy that and contacted the local UPS center. There I was told they did not receive the package and I would need to open a case and trace it. I opened a case with UPS. That got the ball rolling. Though the wrong way as I got a call from the local Distrib center telling me they never got the package. This was a flat out lie as on the tracking ticket it did say the package was received. At that point I called the national UPS line and kept on there until someone live told me I was correct. The package was in the local hub somewhere and someone would get back to me. Which point I said someone better find it as the value was around $4k and I was not letting it go. It was Sat, so I had to wait until Monday. Then I got a call and UPS was tracking the package again.
    My rifle was in Las Vegas! Somehow it went from Milwaukee WI, to Vegas...
    It took another week to get the package. All is good though. Rifle was safe, just wanted to experience "The Hangover" in Vegas, LOL....

    This is why you always insure the expensive stuff at full value.

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    I did also..your blessed I have new in box SSG p2 ...love it.
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    Seller is responsible in my opinion. You paid money for a product, you are entitled to receive it. I always insure the full amount on every rifle I ship, that way if it gets lost I can refund the buyer right away, and then I can make the insurance claim. Win win

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raspootyn View Post
    I just had the "fun" of having a rifle lost for almost 3 weeks. And it was the SSG82 Sniper! I was able to track it "UPS" until it hit the local distribution center. Then no updates. I called in to UPS and they said it's on the way still. I didn't buy that and contacted the local UPS center. There I was told they did not receive the package and I would need to open a case and trace it. I opened a case with UPS. That got the ball rolling. Though the wrong way as I got a call from the local Distrib center telling me they never got the package. This was a flat out lie as on the tracking ticket it did say the package was received. At that point I called the national UPS line and kept on there until someone live told me I was correct. The package was in the local hub somewhere and someone would get back to me. Which point I said someone better find it as the value was around $4k and I was not letting it go. It was Sat, so I had to wait until Monday. Then I got a call and UPS was tracking the package again.
    My rifle was in Las Vegas! Somehow it went from Milwaukee WI, to Vegas...
    It took another week to get the package. All is good though. Rifle was safe, just wanted to experience "The Hangover" in Vegas, LOL....

    This is why you always insure the expensive stuff at full value.
    lmao, talk about an emotional roller coaster. And of course they make it nearly impossible to talk to a live person because they assume everyone calling is an idiot who cant type in a tracking # online or needs to know how long a forever stamp is.
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    Just a couple weeks ago, I just drove 750 miles to pick up a valuable rifle rather than have it shipped. Better safe than sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWilhelm View Post
    I wil never ever never ever ship a rifle any way other than USPS Registered Mail. EVERY SINGLE person who touches the package must sign for it. It simply CANNOT disappear because it travels outside of the normal mail stream and is entirely processed by hand. It is also always under lock and key. It absolutely astounds me that people ship rifles any other way. Yes, it costs more but it is the absolute safest way to mail.

    I wish you luck.
    Until you get one like a did a week or so ago... USPS Registered & Insured mail, even noted it needed an adult signiture when I tracked it - postman left it by the front door without even bothering to knock or ring the door bell. Only luck that I looked....

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    I usually make sure my stuff is sent to me insured. I even send my payment with tracking. The gun legally belongs to the seller until the transfer, but the seller does have your money.

    I'm more familiar with FedEx, but even if I pay for insurance, I need to follow FedEx rules to the "T" or I'll have trouble collecting on the insurance. I would think the same could be said of the USPS. But I've also had a firearm get lost in transit for about a week, only to finally be located about 100 mi from the buyer who got in his car and drove to the firearm, so that ended well enough.

    To answer your question on your situation, I would give the seller a couple chances to square up with you considering you bought "the right" to his gun and he got his money, but you don't have your gun. So, I would think the risk would be born by the seller. If he doesn't respond, then file it with Gun Broker. There's not a whole lot you're going to be able to do about it. The seller could abandon his Gun Broker ID and get a new email address and start over. Or, he might do what's right. You never know until you try.
    Last edited by WiseguyDS; 07-15-2020 at 05:41 PM. Reason: Clarity

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    Recently sent a large certified check to a seller in Connecticut. Post was for next day delivery. Seller and I watched the parcel travel everywhere in the city for almost 2 weeks before it arrived. Sometimes it boggles the mind. You might still get it. The post office is really running behind

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    Seller is in contact with the postmaster and they just keep telling him that it will be delivered, but that the big hubs are a mess and working at 30% or less capacity. They just keep telling him to be patient. I know San Antonio hub has been slow clearing things, but they are koving. Still no progress on my missing rifle. Seller is being good about committing so far.

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    As a dealer, I’ve had the post office attempt to do strange things. Years ago a Japanese Type 99 was a couple of months late getting to me. The postal inspector I talked to started to make up some imaginary rules like the rifle was supposed to be completely disassembled. Recently a friend received a rifle that had been lost for three months. And again, years ago a UPS employee got arrested for breaking stocks on rifles. Long boxes would be his target. All this makes me paranoid when I ship something.
    I would rattle the cage of the local postal inspector. Good luck!

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    Shipping is very whacky right now. It's not yours till it arrives. The seller is responsible as they are the shipper. If sent USPS insured it moves slowly as its locked up in a locker at each transition point. 7 days with Covid....this is why hands down FEDEX three day or less is best.....always.

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    You could also contact the Postal Inspectors

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    I had a similar experience with UPS. Bought a rifle from a member here. Was tracking the package, when I go a message, 'Refused by receiver, returned to sender'. And it was on its way back to Illinois. Checked with my ffl, they never saw the package and proceeded to wear out UPS. They got every excuse in the book, from covid to 'we tried to deliver it several times and you were never there' My ffl offered to show them 24 hour video surveillance to prove they hadn't seen a BBT in over a week, and reminded them that they are denying us our Constitutional Rights. They finally cam clean and admitted it was scanned ON THEIR LOADING DOCK as 'Refused by receiver, returned to sender'. Never even made it on the truck in Denver. There had been a rash of such incidents with UPS in Denver around that time, I'm guessing some f-tard lib UPS dock worker returning any long heavy package addressed to a gun shop. The seller, a stand-up guy, promptly returned my rifle to me (FedEx this time). I offered to help cover some of the cost and he refused, he filed a claim against UPS, not sure if they ever made good.

    Bottom line, they can find your package if they are motivated to do so. Remember, the person on the phone isn't the one who miss placed your item, but as stated above, they may need to be reminded about the ATF, the Constitution, etc. If it weren't for the dogged determination of my ffl and the seller, no telling if/when I would have gotten my rifle.

    I never use UPS anymore unless forced to, due to this and a couple other slippery experiences with them.

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    I put multiple address labels on shipments and covered with clear tape. Include labels INSIDE the box on the rifle packing too.

    Crooks can “overlabel” your one outside address label and ship to themselves. Not likely to try covering labels on all sides. USPS might not like multiple labels....I tell ‘em “bite me”!
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  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWilhelm View Post
    I wil never ever never ever ship a rifle any way other than USPS Registered Mail. EVERY SINGLE person who touches the package must sign for it. It simply CANNOT disappear because it travels outside of the normal mail stream and is entirely processed by hand. It is also always under lock and key. It absolutely astounds me that people ship rifles any other way. Yes, it costs more but it is the absolute safest way to mail.

    I wish you luck.
    Depending on the value it's often cheaper if you consider the insurance cost.
    $5,000 is including in the shipping price and you can insure it up to 50K, I think $1 a $1,000 beyond 5k.

    Disadvantages include the preparation, must be completely in paper including the tape. I had to buy a box of that string tape and when I say box, box of like 48, but for what I saved insurance it paid for itself. They take their little stamp and put in on anyplace it could be opened. I worried about about small antique pistols more then rifles before I sent everything registered.
    The other "disadvantage" it does take longer as mentioned it's a whole different path.

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    Couple days ago i bought a fairly expensive item off eBay and had it sent to my PO box. Seller charged under 5 bucks to ship and no mention or means to add insurance. The item arrived at the PO and an email announcing it had arrived was sent. When i went to pick it up it wasn't there. At this point even with insurance filing a claim would be near impossible due to the PO logging it in as delivered. After a day or so it was "found". After some serious questioning it seems they put it in an oversize package cabinet and put the key in the wrong box. This scenario makes me Leary of future USPS use.

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    I had something very similar happen. Turned out the seller shipped the rifle USPS but the super cheap shipping. I forget what it is called but it takes a slow road (truck) and ends up in every PO along the way and other places. It ended up sitting at one PO for two weeks. When I sat down with my Postmaster, it got resolved. I think it took about a month.

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    After learning the hard way, I now request that the seller insure whatever is being shipped for full market value. I still sometimes forget, however. At least you have tracking which I think is required for firearms. I hope you either receive the rifle or are able to recover your money. I've been burned in the past unfortunately but it wasn't for a firearm (which may be viewed a little differently in terms of responsibilities/liabilities since it is has some federal/ATF involvement/jurisdiction). If the seller doesn't want to work with you on the refund, I would let him know that you intend to notify the ATF. He might change his tune once he hears that. Anyhow, best of luck!

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    There will be an investigation, and until completed......Gun Broker is clear that it is the sellers responsibility.

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    Ammo lab...truly smart info...Excellent!
    I use markers and labels...taped Stuck every where..
    by habit...never thought of the over labeling...such a great point in safety, security.<>< dan
    “Encouraging Grace+constitutional solvently strength, resistances to Chaos!”

  42. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Swamplands of Louisiana
    Posts
    179

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    Have some faith, it may still find its way out of the Jersey Doldrums. I have had packages that were traveling well, suddenly get mired down in New Jersey. The seller better had insured your purchase, cause it his headache if it doesn't reach you. He's not free and clear, until the inspection period is over.
    My Jewish, Scotch-Irish Mother always warned me, "That he who would not stoop to pick a pence, would never amount to a pound." Did you know that a 2 liter soda pop bottle holds 8,000 pennies, which = $80usd, twice that if all the pennies were minted before 1982. Why yes, I am a cheep Bazsturd.

  43. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    278

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    Just a few months ago I had a similar issue, however I was the seller. A member here purchased an antique rifle from me on the trader that ended up lost for a few weeks. He alerted me after a while that it had not arrived and walked me through the steps required to report It with USPS. I was told it would take a week or two but that they almost always turn up. Well it took longer than that but one day I checked the tracking number and it had appeared at a hub! I alerted the buyer that it was found and was back on its way and a few days later the tracking said it was delivered. I’d say It was a learning experience for me for sure. I had always assumed that insurance was the buyers responsibility and that in the event of loss it was the buyer who was liable for the hit, however I quickly learned it is in fact the seller/shipper who is responsible until delivery. I’ll never make the mistake of shipping without insurance again, not worth it even if it did work out this time. OP don’t freak out, USPS is slow but they’ll find it. Mine took a fair bit longer than the two weeks they quoted but it did show up in the end!

  44. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    2

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    Its correct that the shipper will need to file a claim as well as file the report for it being stolen. That way it can be entered in the stolen firearms on NCIC.
    Since you never completed a 4473 at your end, he's still the owner and only he can do the paperwork. Even if you're an FFL class1 or 3 holder, you still don't have it in your book as you never got it. As far as the funds, he's either a decent guy and will at MINIMUM split the loss with you, but should make you whole. Firearms usually have special attention and close tracking. Hopefully it may still show up at your end.

  45. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Upper Appalachia aka SE Ohio
    Posts
    452

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    That statement from gunbroker was interesting to see. I bought a Remington 700 barrel once. I didn't opt for insurance. I received an empty triangular Priority Mail box. It was obvious the seller had left enough room for the barrel to get moving back and forth. It had punched a hole in the box and made its way out. The seller refused to accept any responsibility for his poor packing and refused to refund my money. I reported it stolen, got a call from the PO and they changed it to lost. Never did find it.

  46. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    11,097

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by andiarisaka View Post
    That statement from gunbroker was interesting to see. I bought a Remington 700 barrel once. I didn't opt for insurance. I received an empty triangular Priority Mail box. It was obvious the seller had left enough room for the barrel to get moving back and forth. It had punched a hole in the box and made its way out. The seller refused to accept any responsibility for his poor packing and refused to refund my money. I reported it stolen, got a call from the PO and they changed it to lost. Never did find it.
    Barrels are hard to ship securely. I take one of those triangular boxes and cut off one side, fold in half end in for tight fight and tape it flat like a a large envelope. You can also tape barrel to inside but may mess up finish. Folding ends over to make a tight fit is the key.

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