Why did the Germans bother to convert M95's to 8x57?
Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Why did the Germans bother to convert M95's to 8x57?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,328

    Default Why did the Germans bother to convert M95's to 8x57?

    Wouldn't it have been far easier just to make butt loads of 8x56R ammo on existing machinery to support them? Heck, no front line units used them and the ones that were issued likely were never to be fired in anger. How hard could it be to ship rear units ammo? The US managed to ship '06, .50 cal, .30 carbine, and .45's. Seems like a total waste of treasure and resources.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    221

    Default

    I don't know the answer to that, but I have 8x56r produced by the Germans in, I want to say 1938, with waffenampts. ( do you still call it that on ammo?) It is plentiful and not too expensive even today so they must have made a good amount that wasn't used. Or, ot was just not in high demand to keep the price down today if a lot wasn't made. I'm not sure which. Curious to see what the experts say as I don't have real knowledge on this. What is neat about it is that it generally comes on stripper clips that you can reuse.

    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    9,178

    Default

    Firstly, 7,9 x57 was The Standard for the Wehrmacht.
    M95/30 rifles from Former Austria were supplied to Luftwaffe Anti-aircraft Units
    ( secondary armament), and being a " closed shop", had no supply problems. GUSTLOFF
    ( OSTMARK) Formerly Hirtenberg, switched to German Military Headstamp code in 1940 from previous "Nazi" eagle code of 1938-39. Steel cased 8x56R was supplied to secondary German units.

    The Eagle and Swastika on 1938 and 39 8x56R was NOT a "
    WaffenAmt" mark ( the ammo was Not for Germany, but for BULGARIA, to accompany the wholesale transfer of ex- Austrian M95/30 rifles to Bulgaria in 1938-40. ( Bulgaria had switched to 8x56R in 1934, converting its own M95 Mannlichers to the new calibre.

    The Eagle with Swastika was an initial sign that Gustloff was a
    Subsidiary of the Nazi Party, not a civil contractor for the Wehrmacht. Nothing to do with Waffen Amt inspection stamps.

    Wikipedia and sadly Gunboards are guilty of diffusing ( knowingly or unknowingly,) unconfirmed or ignorant mistakes on historical gun and ammo detail.
    The nitty-gritty references of the first 50 years of the 20th. Century have been largely destroyed or unreasearched from available archives.
    It may take another century to truely elucidate what happened in the German (Nazi Reich) Arms and Ammunition sector.

    I am 71, and I can't see myself going to Koblenz to research what remains of the pre-45 archives ...returned after 50 years ( un-examined) in US Possession; or those still held or pulped in Soviet/ Russian Republic and still there now.

    It is like Egyptology...small grains of knowledge in the Western Desert, over 3000 yrs.

    Doc AV
    Keep Masked, Keep Distance, Keep Well.
    Down-under we are having a resurgence of Covid due to
    Bogan Millenials breaking the rules and then lying about...now facing up to 5 years in Stir!!!




    Doc AV

  4. Remove Advertisements
    GunBoards.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    221

    Default

    Thanks for the info Doc AV. I was in Koblenz about five years ago, had no idea anything like that was there.

    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Cinci, Ohio
    Posts
    3,281

    Default

    As far as I am aware Germany did not convert any M95s to 8x57. That was all done by Yugoslavia.
    In Memorium:
    GM1c - LST 941

    You can view pics of my collection nowhere atm due to photobucket being pricks.
    As a person I am naturally slow to respond. On top of that I travel for work and can work very long days.
    This all adds up to: Don't worry, I'll get back to you, eventually.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,303

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreenMan View Post
    As far as I am aware Germany did not convert any M95s to 8x57. That was all done by Yugoslavia.
    + In the 30s, the Yugos converted the large number of M95's they had to 8x57, their standard caliber. The converted rifles were called M95/24's and M95M's. There is no record of the Germans doing the conversions in either WW1 or WW2.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    663

    Default

    The Austrians had considered switching over to the 8x57 IS during WWI, but for obvious reasons they decided against it. There were various prototypes done for the 8x57 caliber, both based on the M.95 as well as on other actions. The Germans themselves however never bothered to converted M.95 rifles to 8x57 IS caliber, you are confusing them with the Yugoslavian M.95M rifles.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    1,714

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DocAV View Post
    Firstly, 7,9 x57 was The Standard for the Wehrmacht.
    M95/30 rifles from Former Austria were supplied to Luftwaffe Anti-aircraft Units
    ( secondary armament), and being a " closed shop", had no supply problems. GUSTLOFF
    ( OSTMARK) Formerly Hirtenberg, switched to German Military Headstamp code in 1940 from previous "Nazi" eagle code of 1938-39. Steel cased 8x56R was supplied to secondary German units.

    The Eagle and Swastika on 1938 and 39 8x56R was NOT a "
    WaffenAmt" mark ( the ammo was Not for Germany, but for BULGARIA, to accompany the wholesale transfer of ex- Austrian M95/30 rifles to Bulgaria in 1938-40. ( Bulgaria had switched to 8x56R in 1934, converting its own M95 Mannlichers to the new calibre.

    The Eagle with Swastika was an initial sign that Gustloff was a
    Subsidiary of the Nazi Party, not a civil contractor for the Wehrmacht. Nothing to do with Waffen Amt inspection stamps.

    Wikipedia and sadly Gunboards are guilty of diffusing ( knowingly or unknowingly,) unconfirmed or ignorant mistakes on historical gun and ammo detail.
    The nitty-gritty references of the first 50 years of the 20th. Century have been largely destroyed or unreasearched from available archives.
    It may take another century to truely elucidate what happened in the German (Nazi Reich) Arms and Ammunition sector.

    I am 71, and I can't see myself going to Koblenz to research what remains of the pre-45 archives ...returned after 50 years ( un-examined) in US Possession; or those still held or pulped in Soviet/ Russian Republic and still there now.

    It is like Egyptology...small grains of knowledge in the Western Desert, over 3000 yrs.

    Doc AV
    Keep Masked, Keep Distance, Keep Well.
    Down-under we are having a resurgence of Covid due to
    Bogan Millenials breaking the rules and then lying about...now facing up to 5 years in Stir!!!




    Doc AV
    Where are those documents in Koblenz? When I was doing research through the National Archive I found documentation on all of the documents captured by US Forces in WWII, I was looking for the documents pertaining to the Oberndorf Mauser train that USGI’s captured.

    I found the micro film roll number that contains the titles of something like 80,000 documents, that should have those numbers, but so far have not been able to reach a person by phone that knows their whereabouts.

    Are these documents at a publicly reached archive?

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,303

    Default

    I should add that, during WW2, the Germans captured and used Yugo M95M's and M95/24's. Some of them may have been repaired and refurbished by the Germans and therefore have German markings.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Backwoods Virginia
    Posts
    2,662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Where are those documents in Koblenz? When I was doing research through the National Archive I found documentation on all of the documents captured by US Forces in WWII, I was looking for the documents pertaining to the Oberndorf Mauser train that USGI’s captured.

    I found the micro film roll number that contains the titles of something like 80,000 documents, that should have those numbers, but so far have not been able to reach a person by phone that knows their whereabouts. Are these documents at a publicly reached archive?
    The German military and diplomatic records from 1871-1945 that were captured by the United States at the end of WWII were brought to the USA and were stored for many years in Alexandria VA, in the old Torpedo Factory on the waterfront, about two blocks from Interarms. There was a sort-of reading room up on the third floor, accessible by an external staircase (like a fire escape) where one could --theoretically-- inquire about various documents, but the indexing was primitive, and one really had to know what he was looking for.

    Most if not all of this huge mass of documentation was microfilmed before the lot was returned to the Bonn government in the early 60s. The microfilm, visible on big manual reel readers, eventually was passed to the National Archives, and for years thereafter there were highly-experienced specialists working in the catacombs of the NA building in downtown Washington to help guide one's searches for particular documents or photographs. In the '70s I spent many days there.

    With more and more government material being dumped annually into the archives, they ran out of space. The older stuff of less modern relevance had to go. The photographic collection was, I believe, transferred a US Navy installation at Bolling Field, across the river from Washington, and a great many other document groups are now at a new annex of the Archives in Kensington, MD, a northern suburb. Gaining access to files in Kensington was tedious in the best of times, but now with Covid-19, practically impossible. It's no help that many of the staff who grew up with the German collections and were very knowledgeable about them --some were historians themselves--are long gone, and their institutional memory with them.

    Sad, but that's the situation.

    M
    Last edited by MGMike; 08-01-2020 at 05:24 PM.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    4,977

    Default

    When i read and remember correctly there was blueprint of the conversion of M95 to 8x57IS already in WW1, as germans recaptured a large numbers of already by russian captured M95, so it was probably planed for this refurbishments, the trials to use 7,92IS by Austrians were unrealisable in war, the blueprints of changes are nearly identical to late Yugoslavian M95M, is possible the inspiration was there. b.r.Andy

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    1,714

    Default

    Jon Speed provided documents related to the M95 conversion here:

    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...dorf-Jon-Speed

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •