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1944 Izhevsk PU sniper rifle

6K views 94 replies 17 participants last post by  reiver1 
#1 ·
First Big Thanks to Dmitry (Raspootyn) for the rifle and milprileb for setting me up straight with shooting tips!
This girl maybe be born in 1944 but has plenty of "juice" left in her tank...;-) I was able to get her below 1 MOA at 300yds with PPU Match 182gr. Second target picture is 10 shots group on the head (also from 300yds), but it is hard to make out shots...this rifle can shoot for sure!
It took me a moment to get used to the scope setup, which is funny because com block rifles are basically my bread and butter, but this 91/30 is different breed from SVD or PSL54...ha!
Still, I'm shocked how well it shoots. Looking forward to extending legs on that girl! She will have to work hard for the money...:)






 
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#4 ·
Nice shooting and these old snipers are simply a hoot....nice optics in your scope .... my snipers are my favorite shooters. Most Soviet sniper shots were in the range you were shooting in the trench warfare and city fighting.
Chuikov issued orders that trenches should be as close to the enemy as possible in Stalingrad to protect units from aerial bombardment and indirect fire....hard to do when on top of each other.
Can you imagine the effectiveness of the PE/PEM at those ranges...often no more that 50 meters and rarely over 100 in position...3-400 meters would be considered a long shot.
Re reading Beevor's book on that presently...I suspect it will get a 3rd read too it is so informative.

I will bet you could tighten that up with some handloading...not that you need to but making my own loads is fun too. Two snipers require .312 and the PU .311.

Have fun....keep a log of all of your kills and you'll get your Red Star in no time.
 
#5 ·
I read multiple memoirs and books from both sides. Snipers on the eastern font went through some crazy stuff for sure. Many kills on both side were scored within 300m and rarely you can hear them "bragging" about longer shots - however, those were taken as well. I think it literally sucked to be machine gunner for example on either side...
Many of them were also saying, that only 1 or 2 shots from the same position were safe to take. Otherwise you were killed. Per our doctrine today, we teach no more than 3 shots from the same spot...
As far as sniper skills, what is interesting to me, that both sides complemented each other on field craft and camouflaging techniques. I think those who survived and were able to fight to the end, had to have some outstanding practical knowledge and tons of luck. If you didn't have those skills, you were rather quickly put to sleep, no matter which side you were fighting for...
 
#6 ·
Very nice OP :thumbsup:

If you don't already I'd reload for it, you'll find the group size may decrease drastically especially if the old girl is shimmed etc as well.

I also own a '44 Izhevsk PU that is arsenal matching with an immaculate bore/muzzle and was shimmed/zero'd at the arsenal (mount coarse elevation screws still staked etc) and with handloads is capable of half inch five shot groups at 100m if I do my part so these rifles have the potential to be very accurate indeed, even by modern standards.

My Russian "mother and daughter" pair.....
 
#10 ·
That is correct reiver, no gas port drilled unfortunately but to be honest being a straight pull doesn't really detract from the experience as it prefers a cold barrel so a higher rate of fire just for range use isn't really needed.The Soviet manual states that the SVD rate of fire should be kept below two rounds per minute in order to maintain accuracy, unless operational circumstances dictate otherwise.

To answer your question DK......they both shoot remarkable similar, both will shoot sub-MOA with handloads providing I do my part but with, as an example, Russian 188/77 LPS the SVD has the edge although neither are none to shabby with milsurp.
 
#11 ·
Here's a couple of examples of 'good' groups I've shot with good military surplus ammo on the PU and SVD (NDM-86, actually). These were 5 shot groups at 100 yds. shooting from a bench with a front bag.

1943 PU Sniper - seemed to like both heavy and light ball, just a shift in POI




Chinese NDM-86 (Type 79) Sniper - this was 7N1 ammo from factory 1988, dated 1997

 
#15 ·
Here's a couple of examples of 'good' groups I've shot with good military surplus ammo on the PU and SVD (NDM-86, actually). These were 5 shot groups at 100 yds. shooting from a bench with a front bag.

1943 PU Sniper - seemed to like both heavy and light ball, just a shift in POI

Chinese NDM-86 (Type 79) Sniper - this was 7N1 ammo from factory 1988, dated 1997
and @ Snayperskaya - Beautiful rifles guys and outstanding shooting!
From my experiences with both, SVD and NDM, those guns will do the job as long as you are willing to work with them...many people just settle for some old surplus ammo and wonder why rifle is grouping at 5 MOA....
 
#19 ·
I'm familiar with Rosa and her friends but had not read that....this is an excellent book about Soviet females at war...it won a Nobel prize and is short stories in the soldiers own words....

'The Unwomanly Face of War' by Svetlana Alexievich.... an oral history..

I won't go the monetary distance for an SVD...crazy...but may go for a Romanian PSL...I know they are very dif but it could be fun.

Ski... I don't believe Pavlichenko was a sniper at all and many recent Russian historians don't think so either... her 'war stories' are filled with stupid acts that would have gotten anyone killed...it reads like an American Western novel... she was 'created' for her USA trip by Stalin. The only time she was actually talked into a shooting demonstration is was a sub par event....the 'real' male sniper that accompanied her nailed it in the demo.
 
#20 ·
I'm familiar with Rosa and her friends but had not read that....this is an excellent book about Soviet females at war...it won a Nobel prize and is short stories in the soldiers own words....

'The Unwomanly Face of War' by Svetlana Alexievich.... an oral history..

I won't go the monetary distance for an SVD...crazy...but may go for a Romanian PSL...I know they are very dif but it could be fun.

Ski... I don't believe Pavlichenko was a sniper at all and many recent Russian historians don't think so either... her 'war stories' are filled with stupid acts that would have gotten anyone killed...it reads like an American Western novel... she was 'created' for her USA trip by Stalin. The only time she was actually talked into a shooting demonstration is was a sub par event....the 'real' male sniper that accompanied her nailed it in the demo.
Everything is possible, Soviet's propaganda machine was working overtime all the time! I think this wouldn't be hard for them to pull it off...we will probably never know for sure either way...
 
#22 ·
I've had pretty good luck with run of the mill Winchester 182grn Ammo at 100 meters. Also had pretty surprising results with Tulammo (black dot 1 inch target pic)

My mosin 1943 PU was a broken bird when I acquired it, completely warped stock and the scope was filled with the grimiest cosmoline and grease I've ever seen, it looked like a construction yard outhouse inside! Wasn't even able to see through it when viewing through the scope at all.

I had to learn to completely tear down and reservice a PU scope, but now it looks brand new through it, added one of raupleminze's accurizing kit, and now I can confidently outshoot most people at the range with modern rifles out to 500 yards with the ol' gal.

Something very fulfilling when you personally can bring back a project rifle and ends up better then expected.
 

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#28 ·
I've had pretty good luck with run of the mill Winchester 182grn Ammo at 100 meters. Also had pretty surprising results with Tulammo (black dot 1 inch target pic)

My mosin 1943 PU was a broken bird when I acquired it, completely warped stock and the scope was filled with the grimiest cosmoline and grease I've ever seen, it looked like a construction yard outhouse inside! Wasn't even able to see through it when viewing through the scope at all.

I had to learn to completely tear down and reservice a PU scope, but now it looks brand new through it, added one of raupleminze's accurizing kit, and now I can confidently outshoot most people at the range with modern rifles out to 500 yards with the ol' gal.

Something very fulfilling when you personally can bring back a project rifle and ends up better then expected.
That is work of art! Outstanding job!
 
#23 ·
Nice work on your PU.... I've used the tutorials here to adjust the clarity/focus on my PU scopes...great info on this site. I always take a back up shooter when I use one of my snipers.... shoot a bit and let her cool down.
It would be interesting to use an infra red thermometer on it and come up with the best accuracy temp.....I doubt it was as much an issue in Stalingrad/Leningrad but these Az summers are hot and we all know they heat up quickly and can lose accuracy along with...I will have to do that.
 
#24 ·
It's funny I've wondered about the effects of temperature heating up the action and barrel on a mosin. While I have no scientific evidence, I've made a ritual when shooting for paper groups to give a moment of 30-45 seconds between shots with the bolt open until ready to load the next cartridge.
Also if the bolt doesn't close smoothly on a round, I'll eject it and reapply.

Being from California, the struggle in summer to find a spot of shade to let mosin actually cool down is become a bigger struggle then hitting the target now.
 
#25 ·
Well, I like the details (why I re load) so this could be another venue for MN OCD.... The range we have has overhead cover and we usually go out noonish so the sun is overhead.... it is hot mid day but experience tells me the direct sunlight is worse than ambient heat...ambient is non directional and heats evenly.
I'll take my IR out next session and record best groups and the heat cycle...what the heck...another excuse to go shooting with a purpose.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Nice score and good shooting. Congratulations.

Good shooting by several folks. These old rifles and the SVD/NDMs can do some amazing performance. Quite a few of us, many years back here like Skip/Milpreb? sp, Caleb/O Relic, Joop, others etc, showed the nay-sayers who claimed no old Russian rifle could shoot sub-MOA that they were wrong after several of us showed multiple sub-MOA groups.

I agree it is great fun to outshoot someone at the range shooting a modern custom sniper rifle. I had that experience at a public range while the local SWAT team sniper was there with his handloads and Rem. 700 Police sniper. He was not happy and having trouble figuring out how that happened.

The bxn 86 copper wash is some of the best surplus I have fired.

I still love my Extra Match but one rifle likes Target grade better, just one.

The number of members shooting these is at a all time high now. It is nice to see so many reporting on good rifles.
 
#33 ·
Nice score and good shooting. Congratulations.

Good shooting by several folks. These old rifles and the SVD/NDMs can do some amazing performance. Quite a few of us, many years back here like Skip/Milpreb? sp, Caleb/O Relic, others etc, showed the nay-sayers who claimed no old Russian rifle could shoot sub-MOA that they were wrong after several of us showed multiple sub-MOA groups.

I agree it is great fun to outshoot someone at the range shooting a modern custom sniper rifle. I had that experience at a public range while the local SWAT team sniper was there with his handloads and Rem. 700 Police sniper. He was not happy and having trouble figuring out how that happened.

The bxn 86 copper wash is some of the best surplus I have fired.

I still love my Extra Match but one rifle likes Target grade better, just one.

The number of members shooting these is at a all time high now. It is nice to see so many reporting on good rifles.

I''ll preface this by saying that I make no claim to be a marksman. When I take a PU to the range, it's more about testing the limits of the milsurp itself, not my shooting ability, so the bragging rights, if any, belong to the sandbag and the bench or the ground from which I shoot prone.

But people can make all the disparaging remarks they want about "internet marksman claims" and "overrated Mosin 'snipers'". They can believe whatever they choose to believe, but the fact is that it's pretty common to find a PU that will shoot consistent groups hovering just under or just over 1moa out to at least 300 meters (maybe more, but that's about the limit to how far I'm able to shoot at the places I have available). And of course, that's with quality ammo, i.e. good handloads, Soviet Extra or match, and some higher quality modern commercial.

I have a '43 Tula that I bought back in 2012 during the early part of the influx of bulk imports of PUs. I used to think it had a near-mint bore, but would now say it's a "good but not great" bore: I've learned a lot in the years since then about how to evaluate a rifle bore and what constitutes a "like new" bore (yes, I'll admit to being a bit OCD in some ways). I've shot several hundred rounds through it, and I have cellphone photos of virtually every group that it's produced over the years, with "On Target" software rendered group analysis on the pics (did I mention that I'm a bit OCD in some ways)? ;)

At any rate, though I now have PUs which outshoot this Tula, it is very consistent, and it's the rifle with which I have the most experience and the most data collected, and if you examine the records I've kept of its performance, the aggregate group size of all the shots I've fired with it at ranges between 100 and 300 meters is probably very close to 1moa. And if you ask me, that's pretty stellar performance for a rifle mass-produced during a time of national duress almost 80 years ago.
 
#34 ·
Whilst my PU and SVD are both capable of sub-MOA groups I don't/can't shoot sub-MOA groups all the time.I find I shoot better if there is no one else on the range and I can just "get in the zone" without worrying about what anyone else is doing or being able to hear other folks chirping to each other .Some days I'm like the World 100m Flinching Champion, especially if I've got stuff on my mind, which is annoying and there are other days I only seem to be able to pull off 4 great shots that all touch with the bloody 5th one going about 3" off!!! :mad........all part of the fun, or so they say!.More often it is far more rewarding and fun just putting a load of clays and tin cans in the backstop and just plinking at those, then the pieces, than it is chasing small groups on a piece of paper.

When it comes to milsurp ammo the most accurate I've shot in the SVD was 1988-dated Hungarian silver-tipped light ball, the stuff in the grey polymer coated cases.It shot nearly as well as my handloads but unfortunately it is really hard to come by over here, I've only got 20 rounds of it left that I'm saving for a rainy day.
 
#35 ·
I'm lucky enough to have exposure to many sides of shooting. I work with many different people with their different skills levels and experiences. It's great because you are always picking something new or improving your own skills set. At least you try. But long story short, in most cases, from what i have seen, most rifles will simply out shoot person behind it. If you will feed rifle will quality ammo it likes, then it will perform very well.

Shooting this PU sniper has been outstanding experience for me. I'm learning the way how to handle her and how to work with her. She has her buttons and this isn't my XM2010 where i can tweak every chassis detail to my body. You have to take what she gives you...ha!

Punching paper for groups from 100yds or 100m and to be consistently on the top of your performance is an art. I respect that. This isn't skill set which is most important to me, but I do honestly respect that.
For me, most important value comes from shooting at the extended ranges, making good calls for wind, estimating range correctly and etc. Scoring first round hits consistently on targets with PU past 500 yards gives me tons of satisfaction. Some may think it's retarded and i'm wasting my time, but that's ok...I just love to see what i can squeeze out from those old rifles...or maybe what they can squeeze out of me...ha!
But this also brings important factor, I can't just hang rifle on the wall in nice display case...I have to be able to shoot it...trigger puller before collector...;-)
And I'm really happy to see many of you guys here thinking the same way, not just collectors, but actually trigger pullers!
 
#36 · (Edited)
I've been both collector and shooter, but I work so much of late that it's just really hard for me to get to the range.

My philosophy is that some PUs are strictly collectors. For instance, I'm lucky enough to own two factory matching (including original scope) 1944 Tulas. That's a pretty hard find and they aren't making any more, so those will never be range guns for me. High powered rifle bores have a very finite life, and regular range trips will take their toll relatively quickly on an irreplaceable rifle.

On the other hand, I recently picked up at a very attractive price a genuine fully refurbed PU with a great bore and in generally excellent operating condition, but with a stock that the previous owner had tried to "pretty up" by removing the finish. Now that is a rifle that you can take to the range guilt free and worry free.
 
#37 ·
I really enjoy your range videos! I dream of someday owning enough land where I can shoot at 300yd+ distances whenever I want. I can't even imagine being able to set up 360 degree shooting areas like you have! Looks like so much fun!! You are very lucky to have access to a place like that.

Most ranges around me are getting very strict and are forcing people to only shoot from a bench. At one range you can't even stand up and shoot anymore because they installed a armor plate overhang in front of the benches to prevent rounds from going over the berm at 100 yds. Careless shooters ruined it for everyone and almost got the place shutdown. Apparently people were actually sitting 'targets' on top of the dirt berms! Bullets were raining down on someones property at their residence. Scary.
 
#38 ·
There are lots of shooters here and I've gotten some good tips on loads.
Each one of my snipers likes a different load in charge and COAL. The bullet weight seems to be consistent at 174 gns. but the length will vary depending upon the condition of the throat..or throat wear on an 80 year old rifle. My PE/PEM use .312 diameter rounds....older rifles and used more...and my PU, an arsenal sniper, has good tolerances and .311 works just right. Each one has been shimmed and barrel wrapped after working the stock barrel channel a bit so it is supported forward of the receiver and at the wrap.
I've found they all like a little hotter round rather than light for best accuracy.
Others love the light ball or 150 gn rounds.... I suspect with enough attention you can get great results with tweaking it for your favorite style of loads.
The most enjoyable part for me is the shooting work....and the different 'personality' each has.
 
#44 ·
Photos on this thread indicate some decent shooting and rifles with great accuracy potential if load is correct and shooter has his head in the game. Lets not overly praise 400 and 600 shots ...they are very easy to make on a range and if the target is a human...its a big target. What snipers confront is unknown distances, less than human size target exposures , beastly conditions (weather, fatigue,stress) and human dynamics..your shooting skill sets. Sub MOA accuracy is not necessary for 100 to 600 yd targets by a sniper rifle ...its great if its there but MOA will do nicely for the tasks at hand. Lets keep that in perspective and also , if the history as we know it from Stalingrad is true, snipers were shooting shorter distances that most of us often think a sniper would shoot...we are distracted by longer range shots where Stalingrad did not often have that. That said...be it close Stalingrad distances or out on the steppes for a 600 to 800 yd shot, that 762x54R round was a terrific man killer. It shot through men and through things to kill men. That round does perform !
 
#45 ·
Photos on this thread indicate some decent shooting and rifles with great accuracy potential if load is correct and shooter has his head in the game. Lets not overly praise 400 and 600 shots ...they are very easy to make on a range and if the target is a human...its a big target. What snipers confront is unknown distances, less than human size target exposures , beastly conditions (weather, fatigue,stress) and human dynamics..your shooting skill sets. Sub MOA accuracy is not necessary for 100 to 600 yd targets by a sniper rifle ...its great if its there but MOA will do nicely for the tasks at hand. Lets keep that in perspective and also , if the history as we know it from Stalingrad is true, snipers were shooting shorter distances that most of us often think a sniper would shoot...we are distracted by longer range shots where Stalingrad did not often have that. That said...be it close Stalingrad distances or out on the steppes for a 600 to 800 yd shot, that 762x54R round was a terrific man killer. It shot through men and through things to kill men. That round does perform !
Agreed in 100%. 7.62x54r is in service from something like 1890s - this speaks volume about that round. For money paid, 7.62x54r delivers solid bang.
 
#47 ·
I’m looking forward to it as I get my health straighten out..
I’ll tell one that I bought for 300 yards minute of animal...
two hundred yards (dime groups) ..straight 25 X 42 power (taken off)
..tekka bull barrel varmint..federal garment 50 grain. 223.
the surprised Tula silver nasty bear... quarter groups.same distance same day
.won’t group in my AR..on a pie plate..
used them as fouling rounds..surprise!
 
#59 ·
Wraps and heat

On the subject of wraps. My PU sniper rifle, one of the first Molot import sold by AIM a few years ago does not have a barrel wrap. I would never consider a wrap as the rifle is deadly accurate and needs no tweeking but I do acknowledge the Soviets used wraps and many here have used them with success.

My re sniper has no wrap and is accurate. I'd consider a wrap if I thought the rifle needed it but 1 inch groups at 300 yds kinda tells me the rifle is doing just fine. If I saw or felt accuracy was fading, I'd definitely do a wrap approach.

Properly bedded PU sniper or 91/30 rifles don't need a wrap but often the original stock is not what is on a surplus rifle so the wrap would be a great accuracy approach IMO.

As to barrel heat: I mentioned as heat built up, my shots moved and that I took hand guard off and things got back to normal. The barrel relief is such there is nothing one can do to the barrel channel and the heat with HG on, is causing the barrel to slightly move and bear pressure at the end of the fore end. I don't see a wrap solving anything in this regard.

Its a fact heat effects accuracy, the degree is always a variable. Now I could relieve the wood at the end of fore end but the slight pressure there enhances accuracy and lack of it might mess accuracy up.

Since this heat situation is a match unique situation..firing 20 rd strings , one after another and that is hardly what a sniper with his rifle does ...I have resolved my Re Sniper be left alone. Its accuracy at 600 yds is just fine, its at 800 and 1000 that heat effects accuracy and that distance shooting with long strings of fire is a range unique issue...I only do twice a year, otherwise like most here, I shoot perhaps 10 rds and let barrel cool. With normal use , heat does not impact on the rifles accuracy.

If a sniper rifles mission is select precision shots, then my Re sniper PU exceeds expectations in long range accuracy.

Sometimes its necessary to remind shooters the PU sniper is a WWII era technology weapon and if you expect it to replicate the accuracy of a M40A1 or M40A6 ..glass bedded sniper rifle, its not a fair comparison. If one accepts the PU sniper rifle for what it does in a WWII context, then one will be very much satisfied with its performance.
 
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