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WWII Rhode Island Colt Commando

2K views 13 replies 7 participants last post by  dpast32 
#1 · (Edited)
A Colt letter (attached below) arrived this week for a Colt Commando revolver shipped to the State Property Officer, Quartermaster Statehouse, Armory of Mounted Commands, Camp Street, Providence, Rhode Island on June 8, 1943.

I believe this Commando went to the Rhode Island State Guard and would appreciate any information related to the small arms of the WWII Rhode Island State Guard.

Thanks!




 
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#6 ·
A lot of these type pistols were purchased by the Federal government and sent to states as part of their Civil Defense packages. The state would then send the firearms where they felt they may have a need for them. Many cities and towns received these pistols from Colt and some from S&W too. The police departments would store them till needed. Many of these departments later issued these to their officers as the departments grew post wars. I know that many of these revolvers were later traded in on new firearms with most going in favor of new S&W's.
 
#7 ·
Tuna, thank you. I would appreciate any specific references (other than Pate) you might have regarding your statements.

Pate mentions the Massachusetts State Guard Commandos, addresses the H&R Defenders sent to the "Michigan Military Establishment" and "State of Kansas" and displays a graphic of Civil Defense H&R Defenders. The Alabama State Guard Commandos are generally well-known among collectors.

Last year, I acquired a Commando with a post-production "VT" stamp which ultimately lettered to the Vermont State Guard (see below). I was able to obtain Vermont State Guard Circular #2 dated October 28, 1943 which prescribed qualification standards for various State Guard weapons to include the:

  • "Smith & Wesson .38 caliber revolver"
  • "Colt's Commando .38 caliber revolver"
  • "Harrington and Richardson .38 caliber revolver"
This morning, I spoke with the Rhode Island State Archives office and they have graciously agreed to review annual reports of the WWII RI State Guard for any information regarding small arms. I'm also researching other WWII State Guards that provided services to their states when their National Guard units were federalized.

 
#8 ·
Tuna is right as usual about these. These really weren't used by the military that much. In 1945 the US Army started to detail the history of all their weapons from the war. In there is a book on the Revolvers that I found at the National Archives. It goes into more detail than this, but this is a snippet that I will post for you. I'm not sure what the books on these pistols say today, but this is what the US Army Ordnance Dept said in 1945 on them and it really does fall into line of what Tuna says. The Ordnance dept says they weren't really used by the Military but more activities that were vital to the war effort on the home front.

On a side note at the Archives, I see this a lot. The Military regulated everything Civilian and even the companies that were producing war supplies came under control by the Military and the Government. I've seen a lot of times items such as these pistols were sent to state Armories or the district zones of the country and then handed out to vital civilian components of the war.

I don't think you will have much luck detailing where it went from the Armory after it arrived, but I just wanted to explain what Tuna was saying is likely correct, and it gives you a different way to look at the Armory it was shipped to. I would think it was likely sent to something vital for the war effort in that state moreso than the National Guard for that state.

I hope this helps some in your research on the history of this pistol.

It's a beautiful pistol by the way! Congrats on it!

 
#9 ·
I would think it was likely sent to something vital for the war effort in that state moreso than the National Guard for that state.
Norton, thank you for your comments and research. It's always challenging to reconstruct what happened 75+ years ago and a single document never provides conclusive proof.

The critical piece in my research is that I'm looking into Colt Commandos and other small arms issued to the various State Guards, an entirely different and separate entity than the state National Guards. The State Guards generally performed state security missions once the state National Guards had been federalized. The activities of the State Guards would have likely been addressed in state documents rather than federal documents.

So far, I have been able to establish that Commandos were used by the Vermont State Guard and were procured by both the Massachusetts and Alabama State Guards, although likely unissued. Hopefully, I will hear more regarding the Rhode Island State Guard soon.

For more information regarding State Guards during WWII, please see page 32:

https://sgaus.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/US-Home-Defense-Force-Study-1981.pdf

With the various Commando letters I've received so far, I've found them to be rather specific as to the end user with the exception of the US Maritime Commission.

Finally, Pate points out that out that 7193 Commandos went to the OSS, 5602 to various Military Intelligence/Counter-Intelligence organizations and 1814 to the Navy. Those would account for somewhere between 25-30% of production.
 
#12 ·
Finally, Pate points out that out that 7193 Commandos went to the OSS, 5602 to various Military Intelligence/Counter-Intelligence organizations and 1814 to the Navy. Those would account for somewhere between 25-30% of production.
This is sort of the point I'm trying to make and probably wasn't clear about. Just because it was shipped to somewhere military, doesn't automatically mean it was used by the US Military. At this time everything was under the control of the Govt. So when you see something shipped to a Armory, even a main US Armory for example Augusta, you cannot automatically assume just because it was shipped to the Armory means it was used by the US military. I don't know Pate's research or where he got his info from, or when he did it. But I have a large portion of the National Archives on my hard drive. So I've seen a lot of the documents on how the weapons were shipped and distributed from arsenals.

So your comment here about the ones sent to the military counter intelligence organization, one might assume that means they were used by the US Military. But when you read the docs on that shipment, that really wasn't their intended use. Their intended used was for a task force of Allied soldiers. So they just as likely ended up in the hands of a British soldier as they did in the hands of a American. That is why in 1945 Army Ordnance stated so few were used by the US military

This is not my area of study, but I spent about 10 to 15 minutes reading some of the docs on these shipments on the Commandos. You would have to follow all the docs and put everything in order to say 100% for sure what happened, but it does not appear even all those ones going to the Intelligence were shipped. The docs in 1945 show only partial orders arrived from that contract. Then the ones that did could have ended up in allied hands.

On the 1800 to the US Navy, I'm seeing stuff that makes me really wonder on that shipment as well. The docs are talking about the fact that the Navy got that Colt contract but later couldn't get them because of shortages, so S&W filled the orders.

Again, I don't know Pate's research, or when he got it. A substantial amount of the docs I have found is because technology has improved. I can go in with a digital camera and copy 5000 pages a day. So I can go through really quick and copy docs, and then read them at my leisure at home. Back in the day researchers had to go in and read the docs in a little cubicle and for the 5000 I can go through in a day, it would take them weeks to read there. Also new docs are released all the time at the Archives and made public.

I have no desire to research this topic, it's not my thing. But this appears to be a topic that I think someone could research and find out new info on. At least from the limited amount of docs I just read on my hard drive, comparing them to what I have seen stated in this post. I just see things that are contradicting to each other.

My only really point on this post was, just don't assume because something shipped to a military location, would automatically mean it was to be used by the US Military. Because most of the time, that was not their intended use, especially on these pistols. Everything I read in the docs make me think the ones that actually were used by US Military personal were pretty rare.

Which is what I had seen Tuna say, and I just wanted to say everything I am seeing written on these pistols from the Archives is backing up his statements.

I hope you can keep on researching it and find more info on it. :)

 
#10 ·
I have one of the Mass. Colt Commandos. It appears to be unissued but it is heavy with preservative, in the brown paper wrap, cleaning rod and a brownish box. I had another that was at least 98% condition but sold it to get something else. It came with a shoulder holster, which I still have. I did not find them that interesting and figured two was not needed.
 
#11 ·
You have to realize that the vast majority of the stated goals and equipment while issued to the state guards on paper was just that. On paper and not in reality. Most state guards had 100% turn overs in people or huge reductions in the amount again listed on paper. It was to try and make the people at home feel like they were in the war and had a meaning and reason to continue support for it. Handguns issued to these groups became the ones used by Civil Defense which is what the state guards became. The were issued to the wardens in case they might encounter the likes of spy's or saboteurs who refused to cover their windows with their black out curtains. When on patrol walking the streets they might encounter someone breaking the law and could hold them for the police. One just never did know when they went out at night.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Yes, I'm fully aware that this is indeed an older Thread, however, I just now came across it as I was searching for any potential information pertaining to 1942 - 1943 Purchases from any entity within Rhode Island for either Colt 'Official Police', & or 'Commando' Revolvers. Naturally upon stumbling upon the Thread, I did become extremely interested, as I too currently have 2 Rhode Island attributed Colt Revolvers, both of which have been 'Lettered', & were shipped to R.I. during 1942 & 1943. My early 'apparent' DSC Purchase is an Official Police, 4" / .38 Special Polished Blue & was delivered along with 11 other identical examples during March 1942 to "Quinn's Inc.", Weybosset St., Providence, RI Sporting Goods Distributor. And my 1943 shipped 'Commando' Serial # 14993 was delivered in June 1943, lot of 13 identical, to " Washburn Wire Company ", Phillipsdale, RI's Head Draftsman. ( Washburn was a large US Government Electrical Wire Contractor during WW2. ) If anyone happens across my Reply here please advise if you wish to share any Serial # or other relevant data on these somewhat elusive documented R.I. Revolvers. THANK YOU !

Best regards, Dom P.
 
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