Point and Shoot vs Aiming
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Thread: Point and Shoot vs Aiming

  1. #1
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    Default Point and Shoot vs Aiming

    Have we talked about this?

    Since I was a kid I always used point shoot on the fly. I still train with it. Maybe a second or three faster. But for up close and personal (within ten feet) I feel it's the only way to go. Pretty good even with my Ruger LCP .380
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    It’s basic..survival..quickest aimed response ..slower..
    practiced pointing shooting 10 feet on body hits..is important.
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    Get hold of 'The Complete Book of Trick & Fancy Shooting' by Ernie Lind, The Citadel Press, a great book on most of the legendary figures.
    In particular, a technique developed by Ed McGivern involves placing a dowel down the barrel, so by stepping forward it is possible to stab at a hole in a paper target about 5 yards away, shoving the end of the dowel through the hole as the hammer falls. Progress to using multiple holes in the target to improve accuracy. Proficiency in stabbing the hole aimed for, leads on to shooting at silhouette targets at longer distances, sans dowel.

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    I hope this to be a very helpful thread because I took the dive and bought one of the Charter Arms .44spl. Boomers. They are modeled after the "backpacker" conversions Magna-Port made to early Bulldogs back in the Eighties/Nineties by chopping the barrel back to 2", porting them, and removing the front sight altogether. I got swept-in by the nostalgia factor but there is something to point-and-shoot isn't there?
    Dave

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    I was taught point and shoot when I was young , from the hip 5' and under , held close in to the mid line of the body 5' to 10' . My view on point and shoot has evolved over the years , larger cal. point and shoot , small cal. aim . I no longer drink , but in my younger drinking day,s I saw the knife come on top of a small cal. twice , and know of other times it did as well . A .22 ,.25 , .32 and even a 380 is an aim only weapon at close range for me , and a knife the better weapon the closer you are .

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    In Basic Training, Army, 1967, we were put through a program called "Quick Kill". The purpose being that if you're walking point you may not have time to aim a rifle so you better learn to point and shoot.

    The Drill Sargent had us point at an object and hold that position. Then notice that you are not sighting down your arm, you're looking about two inches above your finger, but you are pointing right at the object. The goal was to transfer that principle to a rifle.

    We started out with BB guns. An object was thrown up in the air, and you Annie Oakleyed it, aiming by looking two inches above the foresight. You could see the BB and adjust.

    We went on to 22s, then finally our M-14s. At the end of the program we were given some time to play with it, and started shooting at coins. I learned well - could hit a dime thrown in the air with my M-14. I was so amazed I've remembered that training all my life.
    I'm always looking for rare varieties of 9x18 ammunition.

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    Dave my bull dog..would not shoot silver tips to point to aim .. (7:00 to lower left Tight groups)
    wad cutters point of aim?
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    As a youngster and probably many of you too my idols were Chuck Connors, Audie Murphy, Clayton Moore, John Wayne, you know, all those early westerns where the cowboys could just point an shoot.
    Me and my BB guns learned how to do that early on.

    I would say as North Bender did that starting off with a BB gun is best. I could hit a lizard on the run with my Red Ryder. And after thousands of rounds with my .22 there wasn't much I couldn't hit out 20 yards, cans were the target of choice.
    It's gets to be like muscle memory even to this day.
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    The Israeli forces train this was as well. Here's a good video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB3El16sw3M

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Bender View Post
    In Basic Training, Army, 1967, we were put through a program called "Quick Kill". The purpose being that if you're walking point you may not have time to aim a rifle so you better learn to point and shoot.

    The Drill Sargent had us point at an object and hold that position. Then notice that you are not sighting down your arm, you're looking about two inches above your finger, but you are pointing right at the object. The goal was to transfer that principle to a rifle.

    We started out with BB guns. An object was thrown up in the air, and you Annie Oakleyed it, aiming by looking two inches above the foresight. You could see the BB and adjust.

    We went on to 22s, then finally our M-14s. At the end of the program we were given some time to play with it, and started shooting at coins. I learned well - could hit a dime thrown in the air with my M-14. I was so amazed I've remembered that training all my life.
    NB:

    One of the many topics that I plan to post about, sooner or later, are the Daisy Quick Kill BB guns used for training purposes during the Vietnam war. I have two of these very simple, unadorned, lever action BB guns. One is in very slightly used condition with a metal ID plate on the stock (with the name of the US Army base where it was used) and the other is in brand new condition still in the original Daisy factory cardboard box used to ship the guns to the Army.

    I don't have one but Daisy sold a commercial version of the Quick Kill rebranded as the “Quick Skill” so as to not offend the moms and dads back in the late ‘60s. Same principles except the kids were taught point-shooting at hand thrown targets, tin cans and such, not enemy silhouette targets.

    I have lots of photos, magazine articles, and the original training manuals, all of which I intend to incorporate into the post.

    Too much to do never enough time.
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    Great information, guys. I, as well as others I'm certain, appreciate it. Wasn't the Israeli film on using the sights though?

    DK....my Bulldog shot Underwood, Blazer, and SIG (all SJHP 200gr) to POA. I wasn't able to test anything else because I sent it back to Charter for a timing issue or maybe a new hand. By POA I mean I was hitting that little feller in the top left hand corner of a B27 target at 15yds!

    As far as the 44Boomer without the front sight, I sent it back to Charter before even firing it. I couldn't get all the rounds to seat in the cylinder.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Boomer finished.jpg  

    Last edited by Dave Baird; 08-11-2020 at 07:34 PM.

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    "Point", or "Instinctive" shooting is perfectly valid at average pistol engagement distances (7~15')
    We were taught "punch shooting" where you "punch out" away from you using the instinctive muscle memory to get the pistol in the right alignment. There was also a technique (now not taught) where you pull the strong arm in close to the waist & push out with the palm of the weak hand well above the lower muzzle.
    The idea was to prevent the attacker grabbing the pistol.
    At longer distances I'd go with a quick both eyes open sight picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    NB:

    One of the many topics that I plan to post about, sooner or later, are the Daisy Quick Kill BB guns used for training purposes during the Vietnam war. I have two of these very simple, unadorned, lever action BB guns. One is in very slightly used condition with a metal ID plate on the stock (with the name of the US Army base where it was used) and the other is in brand new condition still in the original Daisy factory cardboard box used to ship the guns to the Army.

    I don't have one but Daisy sold a commercial version of the Quick Kill rebranded as the “Quick Skill” so as to not offend the moms and dads back in the late ‘60s. Same principles except the kids were taught point-shooting at hand thrown targets, tin cans and such, not enemy silhouette targets.

    I have lots of photos, magazine articles, and the original training manuals, all of which I intend to incorporate into the post.

    Too much to do never enough time.
    That’s just excellent Richard! I’d love to have one of those BB guns.

    ”Quick skill” - that’s great.
    I'm always looking for rare varieties of 9x18 ammunition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Bender View Post
    In Basic Training, Army, 1967, we were put through a program called "Quick Kill". The purpose being that if you're walking point you may not have time to aim a rifle so you better learn to point and shoot.
    I remember doing that in basic back in 75 at Ft. Knox, we all walked down on range with our rifles at about waist high, there were pop-up targets on either side of the path we were to stop and point and shoot without shouldering the rifle. except we didn't get any kind of practice, we were just shown what we should do. it was more of familiarization then qualifying.

    the other part I remember was low crawling to a MG position while it fired live rounds over out head, to get close to throw a dummy hand grenade.

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    plonker, showing our age - was also taught for close quarters, to hold the pistol centrally square on and close to the body to minimise an attacker grabbing it.

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    Rex Applegate invented modern combat shooting and wrote a book https://www.amazon.com/Kill-Get-Kill.../dp/1581605587 which then became the US Marine training manual on the subject

    might be worth looking at for more thoughts on this subject
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    Thank you for the book idea, AS. At times it surprises me that those kind forum members leaning left know so much about firearms! I am confused, yet appreciative!

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by SfcRet View Post
    I remember doing that in basic back in 75 at Ft. Knox, we all walked down on range with our rifles at about waist high, there were pop-up targets on either side of the path we were to stop and point and shoot without shouldering the rifle. except we didn't get any kind of practice, we were just shown what we should do. it was more of familiarization then qualifying.

    the other part I remember was low crawling to a MG position while it fired live rounds over out head, to get close to throw a dummy hand grenade.
    I went through a similar course when I deployed to VN. After finishing stateside training we got 30 days leave, then reported to Ft Lewis where we went through a week’s training in a “Vietnamese” village they had constructed ( I set off a booby trap and was the brunt of a few jokes). You’d walk through the village and surrounding paths and blast an M-16 on full auto at popup targets. That I’d love to do again.

    I think it was pretty standard to crawl under the tracers from a water cooled .30 cal, with half sticks of dynamite going off to move you along. We had an Alaskan Indian in our Basic Training company with false teeth. He was crawling under the barbed wire, tracers overhead, and almost made it to the trench when they touched off a stick next to him that lifted him off the ground and blew his teeth out. He scooped out a handful of mud with the teeth and shoved it all into his face and rolled into the trench - well, maybe you had to be there, that was hilarious.
    I'm always looking for rare varieties of 9x18 ammunition.

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    North Bender ---- I vividly remember crawling through the infiltration course as a 19 year old kid at night with the tracer bullets about 2 feet over our heads (3 feet above the ground) and the 1/2 sticks of dynamite going off in water filled holes as we crawled along. I was mighty glad to roll into the trench at the end of the crawl. I remember the wire being 18" above the ground so it would have been very hard to rise up high enough to be hit by a tracer round. The tracers were 18" above the wire. I still remember all remarks everyone was making from that trench. The holes containing the dynamite were fenced all around so it would have been very hard to crawl into a hole with the 1/2 stick. This was back in 1955 and I think we crawled through the course 4 or 5 times during my less than illustrious military experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Baird View Post
    Thank you for the book idea, AS. At times it surprises me that those kind forum members leaning left know so much about firearms! I am confused, yet appreciative!

    Dave
    Not to get political . but if you check what traditional republicans used to stand for, what traditional conservative values are https://www.heritage.org/political-p...ive-principles you will find I'm a bit to the right of them... if you are talking about current republican values, such as ignoring separation of powers such as the recent batch of executive orders that has nothing to do with conservatism at all, violating the principles of free trade and handing out giverment welfare by the trillion .. I am so freaking far right you can't find me, read the link in my sig line. it is why guys like George Will have left the party
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    I also took Basic in 1967. Ft. Lewis, North Fort B-3-2 in the temporary barracks built in WW1. There was no point and shoot training for us, just straight up M-14 familiarization, sighting in, train fire at targets and fire for record. Night fire, was what they called the crawling through the cold mud of December with machine gun tracers, mortar pits and barbed wire. The Vietnam village was in the last week of Basic and we had no live ammo so obviously there was no shooting but there were several trip wires set to explosives and other nasty little surprises. We also got a brief tutorial on the M-16 in the last week where the Drill Sargent began by shooting it with the butt against his genitalia to illustrate how little it kicked. Two weeks off till after the first of the year and off to Armor school at Ft. Knox where it was even colder. Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by SfcRet View Post
    I remember doing that in basic back in 75 at Ft. Knox, we all walked down on range with our rifles at about waist high, there were pop-up targets on either side of the path we were to stop and point and shoot without shouldering the rifle. except we didn't get any kind of practice, we were just shown what we should do. it was more of familiarization then qualifying.

    the other part I remember was low crawling to a MG position while it fired live rounds over out head, to get close to throw a dummy hand grenade.
    Point man drills.

    We used to do a point and shoot drill were you just got into a stance and shot. You find if your stance is good, then your rounds will be end up in the bowling pin.

    All that is emergency drills and does not replace proper sight picture. Bottom line is use proper sight picture, good fundamentals, proper stance, and recoil management. The fastest miss does not win gun fights or even the first hit.

    The first hit in a lethal zone wins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
    Point man drills.

    We used to do a point and shoot drill were you just got into a stance and shot. You find if your stance is good, then your rounds will be end up in the bowling pin.

    All that is emergency drills and does not replace proper sight picture. Bottom line is use proper sight picture, good fundamentals, proper stance, and recoil management. The fastest miss does not win gun fights or even the first hit.

    The first hit in a lethal zone wins.
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    I found point and shoot the only way I could ever hit a clay with a shotgun. Aiming took too long; by the time I got a bead on it, it was too far out.

    Didn't think of transferring that to a handgun until I got bored standing in a booth shooting at static paper targets. I decided, at the ripe young age of 60 or so, to do some competitive shooting at the local range through USPSA. Loads of fun actually - guns and adrenaline! First few months I was accurate as heck, but slow as molasses. Even with a handicap for shooting 45ACP (and being old) I wasn't pleased and was ready to give up. One of the younger guys said I was overthinking it (first time I've EVER been accused of that!) and told me to stop aiming and just shoot. My time dropped significantly, my accuracy didn't suffer much, and my scores went way up. Found it worked well indoors at reasonably short/mid distances and also at longer distances at some of the outdoor matches.

    The only time point and shoot failed me was a three-gun match where, after firing your rifle at targets 125 yards away (from two different locations!) you had to run about 75 yards to the handgun section and knock down a bunch of steels. Turns out when your chest is heaving trying to catch your breath, even trying to aim can lead to a lot of misses!
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    Would have liked to see the score on the target in the video clip.

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    Stan sweet Channel 6 weatherman..talked like mr Magoo cartoon?
    one time fastest draw years new man Bluefield wva..Deceased now.
    Last edited by DK PHILLIPS; 08-11-2020 at 07:29 PM. Reason: L. Space fixed it.. would
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    Quote Originally Posted by DK PHILLIPS View Post
    Stan sweet Channel 6 weatherman..talked like mr Macgoo,
    one time fastest draw years new man Bluefield wva..Deceased now.
    Mr Macgoo? I just started driving like mr. macgoo look out world here I come

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    Here's the new and unissued Daisy Quick-Kill BB Gun I referenced above. Note the lack of sights.











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    Quote Originally Posted by Estaban View Post
    As a youngster and probably many of you too my idols were Chuck Connors, Audie Murphy, Clayton Moore, John Wayne, you know, all those early westerns where the cowboys could just point an shoot.
    Me and my BB guns learned how to do that early on.

    I would say as North Bender did that starting off with a BB gun is best. I could hit a lizard on the run with my Red Ryder. And after thousands of rounds with my .22 there wasn't much I couldn't hit out 20 yards, cans were the target of choice.
    It's gets to be like muscle memory even to this day.
    My parents were deathly afraid of BB guns. They considered them too dangerous because too many treated them as toys. Instead when I was 12, they gave me my personal pistol and set up a firing range in the basement of the house. My brothers each received one also when they were 12.

    I treated my kids the same way as I remembered how dangerous the BB guns were so I brought my kids up with firearms.
    And like my parents, I showed them not toys as what they could do if one was careless.
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    Hello Gents,

    BB guns aside, one of the greatest advantages of the classic English double-rifles is that providing the rifle is stocked properly for the person shooting it, you point and shoot with the sights.

    My John Rigby .450 NE 3 1/4" double and my Joseph Manton .500 NE 3" double, both make point shooting with the sights the norm. A combination of the length of pull, cast off in the stock and the height of the cheek, when properly fit to the owner, ensures that literally every time you shoulder the rifle quickly the sights are aligned perfectly with your eye.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    L~R ~ .450 NE 3 1/4" ~ .500 NE 3" ~ .30-06

    In my case, I was lucky with both rifles and neither of them required any changes in any of these three features. However, back in the day in Zim, I was asked by a friend who was also a fellow PH, if I would please pick up the .500 NE 3" double-rifle that was gifted to him by a wealthy client here in the States. I was tasked with working up full-house hand-loads that properly regulated the barrels before bringing the rifle and 300 rounds of proper reloads with me "across the pond."

    You can't simply buy an old English double-rifle and a box of commercial ammunition and off you go! The barrels gradually converge towards the muzzles due to the effect of barrel harmonics with both barrels soldered to the central rib. If the ammunition matches the rifle properly, both barrels will shoot to the point of aim at 60 to 75 meters depending on the rifle.

    With proper ammunition, both barrels will place the bullets side-by-side until they cross at the intended distance. If the ammunition doesn't fit the rifle, one barrel might shoot high and the other low or wide! So you have to work up just the right hand-loads in single grain increments until both barrels shoot to the point of aim. Over the years I've "regulated" loads for a half dozen doubles in addition to my own rifles.

    When I picked up Don's .500 as mentioned above, the damn rifle was originally manufactured in England for some skinny faced, angular jawed damn Limey!!! ....... UP THE IRISH!!! ....... Moving on, the length of pull was fine, but between the cast-off and comb, to line up my right eye with the sights, the thin section dug into my face just below the cheek bone! By the time I finished working up the proper loads, I started with a bruise followed by a black eye due to the recoil.

    To give you an idea as to load for the .500 NE 3", my Manton shoots to the point of aim at 65 meters with either a 570 or 600 grain bullet on top of 85 grains of IMR 3031. In my double, which fits me perfectly, the recoil is not bad at all if one is used to shooting heavy rifles, however that damn .500 of Don's rattled my damn teeth loose!

    That you can point shoot with the sights, along with a guaranteed second shot, is what makes the traditional English double-rifle the finest dangerous game rifle to this day. In addition, without the added length of a bolt-action, double-rifles are also handy and short in overall length without sacrificing barrel length. A good double shoulders like a shotgun. Every single PH I have ever met who has used a double in the bush, doesn't want any other rifle if Elephant, Cape Buffalo or Lion are on a client's quota.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    In this photo, compare the overall length of my .500 double with my client's .416 Rigby bolt-action rifle.

    If a double-rifle fits you properly, when the "shit-hits-the-fan", you simply look and shoot with the express sights in perfect alignment with your eye every time you shoulder the rifle. This fact has saved my bacon and those of my hunting party on numerous occasions, including two wounded Leopards which are preferably followed-up with a double-barrel 12G or 10G! Still, both cats were put down.

    I also point shoot with handguns using the sights. With a handgun, obviously it takes lots ... and lots ... and then lots more practice, to achieve the same effect, but it's possible. Other than in a phone booth, proper shot placement is better than a quickly fired miss!

    When I was doing a lot of handgun hunting in my younger days with everything including a .22, .357, .45 Colt, .44 Mag or .454 Casull, I used to burn up a hell of a lot of ammunition prior to each hunt and at least weekly in between hunts. Also note that all of these handguns are single-actions. They point better than most other revolvers. I've shot game with different double-action revolvers as well, but that was with the Ruger SP101 I carried in Zim for back-up or with my partner's .357 Ruger Security-Six.

    Practice! ... Practice!! ... Practice!!! ... Particularly if your life might depend on it.

    I'll step down off of my soap box now!

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

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    If it comes to point and shoot, my 12 gauge is perfect, and makes much meat for me and mine.

    Where I live the best pistol is a rifle, but for instinct or point shooting, for pistols, its hard to beat me 1917 Erfurt 9mm Luger, or just about any Luger.

    Good point JPS, bad stuff happens fast.

    Any other time or gun, I use the sights, even to look the Devil in the eye.

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    @ JPS, that there is a whole new dimension of point and shoot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estaban View Post
    @ JPS, that there is a whole new dimension of point and shoot.
    Per your comment Estaban, you might find this thread from the Hunting Forum informative. The topic of this thread and my comments above are born out in real life, NOT as speculation or based on theory.

    Hope you enjoy the read! ;>)

    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...tory-Restored!

    Regards,

    JPS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    Here's the new and unissued Daisy Quick-Kill BB Gun I referenced above. Note the lack of sights.











    Beautiful! I’m on the hunt for one. But looks like they’re in the $250 range - ouch!
    I'm always looking for rare varieties of 9x18 ammunition.

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    Easy sighted..rear screw used pee sight ..stick on shotgun glow worm sight..
    “Encouraging Grace, border Solvency, OTHERS STRENGTHS, Constitutional resistances to Chaos!”

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPS View Post
    Per your comment Estaban, you might find this thread from the Hunting Forum informative. The topic of this thread and my comments above are born out in real life, NOT as speculation or based on theory.

    Hope you enjoy the read! ;>)

    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...tory-Restored!

    Regards,

    JPS
    Those are some nice doubles. And quite expensive. I could buy a house for what some of those babys go for. Take out a mortgage on it. haha

    I will read it, I like a good hunting story. Thanks
    "Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    Here's the new and unissued Daisy Quick-Kill BB Gun I referenced above. Note the lack of sights.











    Now thats a beauty. How powerful is it do you know?

    I just bought a Benjamin Trail in .177 cal. for plinking around the house. That thing will nearly go through a 1/2 in piece of plywood at 30ft.
    "Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
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    It ant no Benjamin for power.
    .if like older ones..
    “Encouraging Grace, border Solvency, OTHERS STRENGTHS, Constitutional resistances to Chaos!”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Estaban View Post
    Now thats a beauty. How powerful is it do you know?

    I just bought a Benjamin Trail in .177 cal. for plinking around the house. That thing will nearly go through a 1/2 in piece of plywood at 30ft.
    I haven’t shot either of the two I have but to the best of my knowledge and belief they’re neither more “powerful” than similar Daisy BB guns or less so. I thinks it’s safe to assume that the Red Ryder lever actions most of us grew up using would differ very little from a Quick-Kill example other than having sights.
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    I haven’t shot either of the two I have but to the best of my knowledge and belief they’re neither more “powerful” than similar Daisy BB guns or less so. I thinks it’s safe to assume that the Red Ryder lever actions most of us grew up using would differ very little from a Quick-Kill example other than having sights.
    A 10/22 with a suppressor works better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estaban View Post
    Shooting holes in paper has absolutely nothing in common with a gunfight. There is a world of difference on a two way shooting range.

    You can listen to "Israeli" or "Special Forces", "Ranger" gimmicky all you want. I never once saw a single thing that was advertised as being for "Operators", "Special Forces", or "Ranger" on the civilian market ever used in any of those units I was a member. That junk is advertising crap to get the unwitting to spend their money. The guys that really have that kind of training or experience do not make youtube videos.

    Professionals use their sights. They train the fundamentals until they are habit. They train a culture of gun safety until it is habit. Now, we did practice Emergency Drills with an Emergency shoot being considered any target you could touch when you came in the room or was physically in your way as you moved to your point of domination.

    Funny story. My wife and I decided we would dance the Argentinian Tango at our wedding. We took dance lessons at Fayetteville NC. In the middle of the lessons, the instructor threw her arms in frustration and started unleashing a stream of Spanish expletives at me. She said this is a dance. You must flow and bounce to move with the music. Instead no matter what my feet did or body did...my shoulders and head never moved from level. I was the "most well grounded person she had ever seen try to dance". I started laughing and told her that a lot taxpayer dollars had gone into making sure of that.

    When the lizard brain takes over and life becomes the ability to perform simply mechanic tasks while scared Sh----...less...the only thing that matters is putting rounds where it counts faster than the other guy. I have seen it happen over and over again. There is no prize for first to miss and it does not win firefights.

    So, buy into the gimmickry, it is free country.

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    My advice....

    Work on both speed and accuracy. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Each movement you make take it slow and ensure you are building the correct muscle memory. It is more important to get it right than to be fast. Speed will come.

    Start out with controlled pairs (two shots, three sight pictures) and let accuracy be the judge on when to speed up. When you start putting fist size holes in paper after a magazine that is a clue to start going faster. When your target looks like a shot gun pattern, that is a clue to slow down. Concentrate on the fundamentals.

    "High speed" is nothing more than knowing the basics really really well.

    When you have a good grasp on controlled pair start working on double taps (two shots, two sight pictures including follow thru). That muscle memory you build in the controlled pairs for the follow thru is what lends accuracy to your double taps. You will know your double taps are correct when you put two holes stacked in a vertical line straight up and down about 1/2 inch apart.

    Work on speed, accuracy, and always the fundamentals. When you have a really bad day by hopefully not falling prey to "suspension of belief" but rather realizing that you are infact going to die if you do not act....

    Your lizard brain will do the right thing because your muscle memory is correct.

    Never pray to the "combat fairy", they do not exist. What do I mean by that? You will hear "experts" tell you, "When in combat I will do it like this...but here in training we will do it like this" Baloney. When in combat you will do exactly what you have trained the most primitive part of your brain to do and nothing else.
    Last edited by davidsog; 08-12-2020 at 06:27 PM.

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    If a double-rifle fits you properly, when the "shit-hits-the-fan", you simply look and shoot with the express sights in perfect alignment with your eye every time you shoulder the rifle. This fact has saved my bacon and those of my hunting party on numerous occasions, including two wounded Leopards which are preferably followed-up with a double-barrel 12G or 10G! Still, both cats were put down.
    Training. It works.

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    Did basic the first part of 69 at Fort Bragg. We did quick kill with Daisy pump BB guns. Finished quick kill walking a trail with pop up targets and fake trip wires.
    We were given M16's for 2 days and on the second shot the same qualification course as we did with the M14 and were given orders and qualification badges for both.
    We crawled that infiltration course three times in the rain, twice in daylight and once at night. Most learned to keep their rifles out of the sand the hard way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
    Shooting holes in paper has absolutely nothing in common with a gunfight. There is a world of difference on a two way shooting range.

    You can listen to "Israeli" or "Special Forces", "Ranger" gimmicky all you want. I never once saw a single thing that was advertised as being for "Operators", "Special Forces", or "Ranger" on the civilian market ever used in any of those units I was a member. That junk is advertising crap to get the unwitting to spend their money. The guys that really have that kind of training or experience do not make youtube videos.

    Professionals use their sights. They train the fundamentals until they are habit. They train a culture of gun safety until it is habit. Now, we did practice Emergency Drills with an Emergency shoot being considered any target you could touch when you came in the room or was physically in your way as you moved to your point of domination.

    Funny story. My wife and I decided we would dance the Argentinian Tango at our wedding. We took dance lessons at Fayetteville NC. In the middle of the lessons, the instructor threw her arms in frustration and started unleashing a stream of Spanish expletives at me. She said this is a dance. You must flow and bounce to move with the music. Instead no matter what my feet did or body did...my shoulders and head never moved from level. I was the "most well grounded person she had ever seen try to dance". I started laughing and told her that a lot taxpayer dollars had gone into making sure of that.

    When the lizard brain takes over and life becomes the ability to perform simply mechanic tasks while scared Sh----...less...the only thing that matters is putting rounds where it counts faster than the other guy. I have seen it happen over and over again. There is no prize for first to miss and it does not win firefights.

    So, buy into the gimmickry, it is free country.
    You think point and shoot is a fantasy davidsog? Good luck to ya then. Like those guys in the video don't train and have to hit the target. Yeah, where it counts faster than the other guy and that's what point an shoot is about.

    Your always the debbie downer.
    "Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
    Ronald Reagan

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