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Nazi marked Russian M91/30 I think is fake

7K views 32 replies 22 participants last post by  sparky236 
#1 ·
A friend showed me this rifle that he has had for 15 to 20 years. He did not know it had faint Nazi inspection markings. It is a 1939 Tula with matching numbers and Russian rebuild markings. My pictures are lousy but the Nazi markings are eagle over circled swastika and waffenampt mark WAa 63 (?). The eagle swastika marking are in several locations and double stamped. With a stronger magnifying lens I was able to detect the remains of the importers faint dot markings. Markings are on the bolt, wood stock and magazine body.

I suspect a total fake but it could be real and a previous owner who hated import markings had them erased. I know British but my ignorance regarding Russian and German arms is well documented. Opinions please.

 
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#2 ·
This is an arsenal refurbished weapon based upon the box stamp on the barrel above the serial number.... I am no expert either but can't imagine the Russians refurbing a weapon at an arsenal and leaving a German swastika on the piece.
I've also never seen such a large stamp...they are usually very small....
 
#4 ·
As fake as the eagals and such I saw on a much reduced for sale M70 Winchester in .270, at the Palmer gunshow a couple years ago.

The seller was the first to point out all the crazy stamps, letter, numbers, swazstickers and all, said he couldnt price it, so give em a number, I just gave him a big smile and checked out his other rifles.....LOL!!!!
 
#8 ·
Back in the mid ‘90s when the fantasy Nazi Steyr M95 rifles were common there were smaller numbers of Nazi proofed M1944 Mosin carbines on the market. Both counterfeit rifles originated in Canada and I had a copy of the sale ad in the Gun Runner newspaper, the Canadian version of the Shot Gun News. When this subject was discussed on Tuco’s c.2000 I posted a scan of that ad. I have it somewhere and could post it again if there’s interest.

There’s more to the story if anyone is interested.
 
#7 ·
Why would a Soviet-made gun have a German inspection mark? WaA were only applied to guns made under German supervision. Of course it's fake.
 
#11 ·
FAKE AS.
WaA 63 was the Mauser Oberndorf Factory Inspector, who moved his team to ZB ( Brno) in 1939.
Neither plant had any inspection/repair facilities for
BEUTE-waffe ( booty weapons)...they were too busy building New Rifles, MGs etc.
Inspection ( if at all) was done by local Depots of the Army...

Doc AV

" There's a Sucker born every
Minute" P.T.Barnum
 
#16 ·
The only original "Nazi" Nagant rifle I've ever seen was an attic find, that came up at a local gun show. It was a plain service rifle, all serial numbers factory matching, no signs of Arsenal overhaul. The very small detail you could make out it was German captured was the fact the bolt was blued - everything else was not modified or stamped. Wish I would had bought it - especially since the seller didn't caught this detail himself and it was priced as a plain M.91/30 rifle.
 
#17 ·
All the above valid points but no one ever contemplates, discusses or suspects SA faked up 91/30's. Its like denial .. a FINN collector mental disorder on this board as "SA" is sacred and FINN collectors here just can't believe anyone would fake a SA stamp.

For years I've posted suspicions of faked up 91/30's that would pop up at a Virginia show, always just one at a vendors table and for many years running there would always be one on his table for sale. No one has an unlimited supply of SA marked refurb 91/30's so I connected the dots long ago.

Lads...you best start looking at SA stamps as all are not what they appear to be ! Whack the stamp for major $$$$ and faked SA stamped rifles are out there. Wake up.
 
#18 ·
The fake [SA] stamp rather ruined what used to be a small niche in the M91/30 rifles with the import stamps. These "Russian Recapture" guns commanded a premium for a while, until far too many of them began showing up circa 2013-2016. One dealer was even caught buying M91/30 rifles on Gunbroker or from board members, stamping his little fake mark, and then doubling his asking price. He didn't take into account that there was such a phenomenon as Before and After pictures.

Therefore, I will not buy an M91/30 with an [SA] stamp and with an import mark, unless it is priced below market value.

An M91/30 without an import mark and an [SA] stamp is still OK. Putting a Finnish Army property stamp on a non-import marked Russian M91/30 will actually detract from value.
 
#25 ·
I looked in my archives and found the following from a post in 2012 which was a followup to a thread on the same subject in 2009:

I know the story on these "Nazi marked" M44 Mosins, and it's not a happy one. These first surfaced in an ad in the Canadian "Gunrunner" newspaper (a publication very similar to our "Shotgun News"). It's been a long time (and my dating my not be accurate), but it was probably around 1990-'91. The story was that these were recently uncovered in one of the just liberated Combloc states (or maybe it was one of the former states in the (at the time) recently expired Soviet Union). There were numerous waffenampts and German test eagles on the barrel and the buttstock. When I say numerous, we're talking 5, maybe 6 stamps on the barrel and just about the same number on the wood.

I bought one of these from Bruce Stern in the early '90s. Some of you may have heard of him and his world class collection that was sold after his passing a couple of years ago. Bruce swore to me that these were "right". He was a friend so despite my skepticism and better judgment, I bought one. I knew in my bones that these "just found" rarities were bogus, but I didn't want to miss out in case they were "right".

My opinion then, my opinion now, Bruce Stern was wrong, these are phony. That
opinion was shared by every knowledgeable collector I knew and associated with. I ended-up selling this clunker for about half of what I paid for it.
Keep in mind that when these showed up on the market, Mosins from the former USSR and Combloc states had not yet been imported. All we had were old, pre '68 imports, bringbacks and post '86 imports of Finnish and Chicom Mosins. Mosins (and other arms from the Communist countries) have always been available in Canada. It is presumed that the Nazi markings were just added to help sell inventory that would not otherwise move (and taking advantage of the then current political events to makeup a plausible story as to why these marked Mosins suddenly appeared out of nowhere.)

In the early to mid '90s I saw a good number of these marked M44 Mosins at some of the larger shows. My belief that these were phony was confirmed when (at the Allentown, PA show) I saw a 1946 dated Mosin with all the Nazi markings. Other than the date, it was identical to every other example I saw.

A similar scheme was employed to sell Steyr-Mannlicher m1895 carbines. Same stamps. Abundantly applied. Just as fake.


One final note: Every example of the phony Nazi Mosin I saw looked just like the Yugoslavian M44 carbines with the sanded and oiled stocks.
 
#32 ·
I would definitely be wary of owning a rifle like this with defaced import and serial number markings. I have a Dremel engraving tool that could probably be used to re-engrave the pertinent information on the receiver but I would still be wary of owning something like this. That "FPS Russia" guy on YouTube just got out of federal prison for firearms-related violations. One of the charges they slapped on him - that was later dropped - was "defacing or obliterating a serial number" or something to that effect. He had a gun "professionally refinished" and the paint seeped into some of the numbers making them hard to read. If that's enough to catch a case I definitely wouldn't want a weapon with scrubbed import markings (that are required by law) like in pic 1.

I bought a 1943 Mosin-Nagant in a pawn shop a few months ago for $150. Finding a Maxim or a MP40 in grandpa's attic is one thing but there's no way I'm risking prison for a $150 rifle like a Mosin-Nagant LOL
 
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