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Hakim vs. others as an "urban battle rifle."

34K views 49 replies 24 participants last post by  Tombstone 
#1 · (Edited)
This post is just for fun. A new rifle always excites me when I first get it and start to shoot it, then the novelty generally fades and I sell it and move on to something else.

The Hakim is the current apple of my rifle eye. I've had some random thoughts on it and since there are more people here familiar with the Hakim than anywhere this side of the Old Campaigner's Home in Cairo, I thought I'd post and solicit random feedback.

My thoughts are currently running along the lines of a debate on the merits of the Hakim vs. other battle rifles. Let's move it toward the scenario of a "home defense semi-auto rifle in an emergency, that is used for shooting enjoyment in peaceful times, points pro and con, subject: the Egyptian Hakim."

I'll frame it as the Hakim vs. the various .223 variants (Bushmaster AR-type rifles).

Current ammo availability: I think the Hakim wins here. I keep hearing of .223 shortages/high prices, while no such problem has yet come into the 8mm Mauser market. Romy ammo is currently available for about $100/340 rounds, shipped. Plenty good for the Hakim. Shoot all you want and head to the 'net for more, at a reasonable price.

Ammo effectiveness on target: Again, I think the Hakim wins, GIVEN A HIT (more to come on that). The 8mm mauser bullets out there are 150 grains and up, and are moving at a fair clip. The .223 bullets are much smaller, and have been said to "pencil" the target, passing through with little immediate effect. A big 8mm 198gr is going to put a zombie down for the count.

Ammo weight for carrying: An obvious mark AGAINST the Hakim. Bigger/and heavier rounds make for heavier carrying and/or less ammo being carried.

Accuracy: In my experience, the worst mark against the Hakim. Mine don't seem able to shoot anything near MOA, while with an AR the shooter gets all the accuracy he could reasonably want in a battle rifle. Personally, this is my biggest gripe about the Hakim so far.

Rifle portability: again, the Hakim loses. It's long and heavy, much more so than the AR variants. Harder to pack, harder to conceal, no collapsible stock, and the ammo weighs more.

Field stripping process. The Hakim is very easy to field strip and clean, but so is the AR. I think it's about even here.

Current cost of rifle: maybe the biggest current advantage of the Hakim. I saw a Bushmaster AR today, basic model, listed at $1099. The Hakim costs about $400, maybe less. That is a new AR vs. a used Hakim, but the Hakim is going to be way cheaper.

Ability for a less-proficient shooter to put rounds on the target: has to favor the AR...lower recoil and better sight system. More ergonomic as well.

Availability of parts: not as much as a runaway advantage for the AR's as you'd think. I've bought some replacement parts for the Hakim lately and they're reasonably priced and fairly available. Probably favors the AR, but, not to the point of making the Hakim a loser in the debate. JB here on gunboards stocks the most needed parts for the Hakim.

Aftermarket add-ons: the Hakim's a big loser, here: unless you count a Chi-com jerry-rigged peep-sight as an accessory, you aren't going to find much. AR add-ons are endless. I guess you could tape a Surefire to your Hakim with duct tape, but.....that's taking liberty with the concept of the add-on. FORGET about putting a scope on it, unless you are the ultimate gunsmith, in my opinion.

Cool factor: well, beauty and "coolness" (admittedly a moronic and totally unimportant category in a battle rifle debate) are in the eye of the beholder, but, my vote goes to the Hakim. It's big, it's long, it's loud, and everybody at the range asks "WTH is THAT!!??" Whether they're asking because they think it's cool, or because it's so loud it ruins their day at the range, I couldn't say. I vote the Hakim a winner in the "coolness" category.

Fun factor: Again, I have to vote for the Hakim here. I've shot plenty of .223, and while I like the round, I could not in honesty say it turns me on. The Hakim, whanging those big 8mm 198's down range, is loud, proud, and a lot of FUN!!! BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM!!!!!!!! Big noise, light recoil, and kicks that brass forward and WAY out there in front of you. Puts nice big holes in the target. And creates a nice big dust cloud in the dirt bank behind the target. Lots and lots of fun.

Reliability: Hmm...I've had jams with both, but I've never had a jam I couldn't easily remedy right in the field with an AR. With my new Hakim, I had to come get help at the Middle Eastern Forum. I probably could've fixed that at the range if I knew what I was doing, though. Both have parts that can wear out/break. Probably a push, in my book.

So: after typing up my internal debate here, my take, purely personal, is this: If you really need a battle rifle, for serious reasons, get an AR variant. If you've got to clean the zombies off of your front lawn, defend your turf, shoot it out with bad guys, or whatever your personal "bad times" scenario is, you probably want a rifle that is ultimately reliable, pretty accurate, and that you can carry a lot of ammo and magazines for. That would be the AR. Although, I'd add a caveat here: if you've got zombies on your lawn, those would be close shots and accuracy would probably then be less of a factor than big holes would be, and the Hakim wins there.

But in peaceful, "fun only" shooting, the Hakim clearly wins: easy availability of cheap ammo, novelty, big noise, "heavy firepower" feeling, and overall chic take the day in favor of the Hakim when nothing serious is on the line.

And there, you have it: a totally unneeded post with no redeeming quality whatsoever, other than that it gives me a chance to randomly post my musings on a cool new rifle, while babysitting my newborn who sleeps peacefully (for a change) as my wife enjoys her first "girls night out" since having our baby three months ago. Come home quick, Hon, before I subject this board to another ridiculous rambling post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I'd enjoy any observations or postings of points I missed, of which I'm sure there are many. I actually really like this rifle, and am debating buying a couple more to be able to have one in my vehicle, and to have one for replacement parts. Specifically, any thoughts on improving the Hakim's accuracy would be very welcome. Mine's abominable. 8mmFan
 
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#27 ·
I'm thinking that un-adulterated Hakim would never qualify as an urban battle rifle. Heck, the thing is even too long to swing like a club in most alleyways--and that is the last-ditch "battle" application of any battle rifle. So I think that for any practical discussion, the words can, urban, Hakim and rifle can't be used in the same sentence. You can't really blame the Egyptions, the Swedes made it pole-vault length. Then again, most of Sweden probably wasn't "urban" in 1942, so you can't blame them either.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say we can mess with a Hakim a little.
Easy starting point--the barrel. The barrel is an ungodly 25" or 26" long. Given a little hacksaw and welding skill, I might make a mini-Ruger attempt out of the Hakim. The g43 designers seemed to think that what 20/21" was sufficient for stablizing 8mm for enough distance to warrant a scope. (I am not sure what the twist rate comparison is between Hakim and G43, but I'm going to assume equal, b/c I'm that simplistic kinda guy).
So, you whack the barrel down to 20. You re-weld on the muzzle brake/front site. It adds 3" back, but you really should, b/c you are quickly repetitively firing a 30+ cal, for pete's sake.
You whack part of the stock and keep the front band. I guess you could also use a spare Yugo or Spanish Mauser front band that has a screw to tighten it, if you decide to cut back all the way through the existing front band catch on the Hakim.
I don't know if I would mess with the butt stock or anything. I've seen picks of the "para-hakim." I like the weight savings, but I am not sure what the trade-off is in accuracy/reliability.

There are no after-market sites to speak of, minus the already-mentioned Chinese-peep. That's a big bummer. I swear my most accurate rifle is my Winchester 69a .22 with a parker-hale ghost rings setup.

You buy a 25 round clip from JB. Oh heck, he does quality work, buy 8 and help re-start the economy...

As a complete know-nothing, I'd say that you would have something close in scale (yeah, it's a weight pun) to a sturdy hi-cap G43 (or maybe an M14?.) At least a stubby Hakim would be a little easier wield than in original form factor. It would probably be accurate out to 200 yards. And that's 2 blocks in urban-land. You might lose some velocity with a shorter barrel, but there was plenty to begin with. Has "box of truth" done a .308/.3006/8mm/7/62x54 comparison? That would be cool.


I like the ease of break down, cleaning and clearing of jams with my hakim. Lord knows that when you're trying different types of ammo, you do see jams. For that reason, I love that the gas valve is easy access. If you can find 8mm, then you can get it adjusted to work very easily, in my experience. I hate that the Hakim weighs more than it should by a third. Oh, and the ammo is boat-anchor heavy, so running up and down stairs in urban scenarios would be a no-treat.

Dang, I might have just inspired myself into a project.
 
#28 ·
#31 ·
A lot of why I collect firearms is because of their various unique approaches to solving the same basic problems. Anyone with a Hakim should own a Ljungmann M42 as well to appreciate its origins. Both are unique, both wouldn't be my first choice in using it for what it was intended for. As a collector I appreciate their design/function. As a troop I would be disappointed.
 
#33 ·
This is a full length Hakim with a custom SAR stock. I am putting together a shortened version...(16" barrel with removable muzzle brake). It's a little lighter and easier to shoot. I also have some M13-13 25 round mags
that have been cut down (made shorter) so they don't look so ridiculously long hanging under the rifle(not in pictures). The shorter barrel rifle should be built in a week or if anyone is interested in seeing it. I sell on Gunbroker.
 
#36 ·
There has not been much action in the forum; we'll take all we can get ;)

Dang, does anybody have anything good to say about the Hakim lol. And these are all Hakim owners!
I might be the odd one out but I think they are comfortable to hold and shoot. I also think their recoil is similar to an AR15. And they were well made and simple.

I do not understand why the Egyptians did not keep them and scoped them to be used as sniper/quasi-sniper rifles, but I do not know how that army works. They would fill a PSL/M14 function without any issues.
 
#38 ·
Got this one dirt cheap because Bubba done made a half-assed scope mount for it. Took some work to fix his efforts and rebuild the mount with good rings. It now sports a 10-40X scope and is quite accurate but my limited supply of 8mm dwindles and I don't shoot it all that much anymore.
The many "flaws" and drawbacks of the Hakim have been beaten to death here in the Archives over and over. It's a heavy telephone pole not well suited to much other than bench shooting but they can still be a lot of fun when not besieged with the Hakim pitfalls.
 
#40 ·
Got this one dirt cheap because Bubba done made a half-assed scope mount for it. Took some work to fix his efforts and rebuild the mount with good rings. It now sports a 10-40X scope and is quite accurate but my limited supply of 8mm dwindles and I don't shoot it all that much anymore.
Are you against buying modern ammo and prefer to only shoot surplus on it?

The many "flaws" and drawbacks of the Hakim have been beaten to death here in the Archives over and over. It's a heavy telephone pole not well suited to much other than bench shooting but they can still be a lot of fun when not besieged with the Hakim pitfalls.
Or shooting on a desert/flat area where the enemy is way over there and has to come on foot to get you. :D

Have another Hakim option. A carbine version with e2 style stock. Shorter and much lighter. The barrel is 16" and the muzzle brake can be unscrewed. This is a very manageable weapon in this configuration. For sale if anyone is interested. Gunbroker.com I may make one more. View attachment 1311929 View attachment 1311945
That reminds me of the shortened SVT 40 that was sold on gunbroker this week.
 
#41 ·
When 8mm surp dried up, switched to 7.62x54R and still have crates in the basement.Can't afford $1 or more a pop for new commercial which is what deters me from .308 or otherexpensive calibers as I like to burn 100 or so in a sitting.
Many new and modern guns, without the quirks and failings of a Hakim and other milsurp battle rifles are quite desireable. If I had the wallet for them and the expensive ammo ...

One thing I wouldn't want in that type of combat is a jammed up Hakim. Maybe the reason some of them come with sand in them as the previous military owner chucked them in a sand dune and ran away when they quit running! Note the very short military life span of the Hakim. Rapidly replaced and phased out as soon as the AK came along. Only reason they built them was the tremendous surplus of 8mm left behind from WWII.

It can be quite accurate and quickly reloaded with stripper clips (when they work and are not rusted and sticky) but it is not a gun I would choose to lug around and when it acts up ...
The PSL-54(s) on the other hand, which I have a dozen magazines for, can lay out long distance stand off surpressing accurate hard hitting fire power would be my preferred go to rifles.
 
#43 ·
I do not know where you are buying your ammo, but brass 7.62x51 NATO can be found for under .60 a round. I have bought PPU 8mm Mauser for I think .70 a round last month, about the same 7.5x54 goes for.

If the Hakim is accurate, why didn't the Egyptians kept it to fulfill the same rule the SVT and PSL were built for? After all, they were already built and they had enough ammo. I am not avocating using the Hakim for an AK job, but I would also not ask a PSL to it either. IMHO the cartridge and the rifle would lend themselves, adding a scope nothwitstanding, for designated marksman/poor man sniper support rifle. Like, say, an M76 which seems to do well shooting that same round.

Answering my own question, I think the problem is that when the Egyptians switched to AK, they got an entire system and fighting doctrine. Or never properly trained their soldiers and officers, instead focusing on quantity.
 
#44 ·
well it has its quirks and a gas operated rifle using corrosive ammo in less than ideal conditions is just asking for problems. My gas port will seize up pretty easily and I always clean gun thoroughly after shooting corrosive (tho I don't take the whole gas port apart). Now imagine that with people doing half assed cleaning jobs and I could see why it was replaced. No cleaning kit or even cleaning rod on it either, which means its even more 'inconvenient' for the soldiers to maintain properly.
 
#45 ·
In a battle situation, it would be
my last choice. This is because the operation of it is awful...I thought "garand thumb" was bad!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#46 ·
When talking long guns in larger calibers, .308, .303, 8mm, 7.62x54R, or any other high velocity .30cal long case ammo, they pack a lot of punch and generate a lot of heat.
Rapid fire in a semi-auto closed bolt operating system builds up tremendous heat in just a few rounds. You are burning a lot of powder in a short span.
Crank off several magazines rapidly in a Hakim and watch the stock start smoking! Anyone who has received the "Hakim Tattoo" from a hot gas valve can attest to how hot the barrel is getting.
Expansion of the metal and pressure against stock and action can warp things and cause accuracy to deteriorate rapidly with shifting POI.
Chamber heats up and expands and empties start to get stuck. Bolt and cycling can get balky.

A Hakim will run smoothly and shoot accurately all day long if given some time to cool down between rounds and magazine refill but if you get on a fast rip with it, bound to start having problems and the faster you shoot, the faster they crop up. Similar issues with Egyptian FN-49.
A combat role as a heavy support gun or surpressing fire weapon is a total fail for the Hakim. Weight, length and bulk make it a telephone pole no one will want to take on a long hike, not even as a hunting rifle.

The Hakim, Rasheed and FN-49 were doomed as a military weapon as soon as the USSR cozied up to the Egyptians and started handing out free AKs. One would imagine their troops were overjoyed and thrilled silly.

I enjoy my FN-49, which is a hoot to shoot and very acurate, until it throws a Hakim style temper tantrum and starts to act up. A true safe queen, it only comes out once in a blue moon.
 
#47 ·
There's a fun-to-watch video on YouTube of a guy emptying his 25-round magazine by bump-firing his Hakim. It'll get your Hakim juices flowing!

I've still got mine after all these years. The baby that I was hoping would keep sleeping when I wrote the post that began this thread is now big enough to shoot the Hakim himself (i.e. I STILL haven't sold the monster of a rifle AKA Hakim!). For some reason, every time I make up my mind to take the photos and put it on Gunbroker, I end up not doing it!

8mmFan
 
#48 ·
Hi Tom,

Trying here because I failed getting any info, took my Hakim apart to clean the gas system still firing corrosive Egyptian ammo.
Failing at getting nosepiece and clip back on, barrel measures 5/8th or .6625 on my non-metric caliper.
With the pieces assembled away from the barrel the hole presented is slightly non-circular and about 1/16th shy of the barrel diameter vertically.
Is there some magic at getting this simple two piece arrangement back together?
I was able to consistently bang a 1 ft plate at 300 yards supported from the bench with that surplus ammo.
Bluing wear shows the clamp was hauling the barrel hard to the stock at the tip, likely that is critical to accuracy.
Bill
 
#49 ·
Sold both of mine recently and regret it. Most accurate Semi auto milsurp i ever owned even with old greek 8mm. Its an impressive rifle with The 25 round converted nazi mg-13 attached. I did not experience any of the issues described above even with the 25 rounder attached. I cannot see the Hakim as a close combat weapon. Too heavy and too long. The image of a soldier trying to run thru a narrow hallway or doorway with one is almost comical. BTW i sold one with both the 10 and 25 and the other with only the 10 due to stupid laws. Last 25 listed on trader (shameless plug). Why did i sell them? Well just too big and heavy for this old man.
 
#50 ·
I guess I'll have to take one apart again and remember how it all fits back together again. I know the nose piece on one of my Hakims is difficult to get back on correctly - the others fit together with no problem. On the difficult one, I just remember fiddling with it for way to long before it finally snapped back together, but that was years ago. Unfortunately, I'm away from home, so it may be a week or so before I get back.
By the way, I know many of us are anal about cleaning our rifles after corrosive ammo, but the gas system on a Hakim is not really that critical to keep clean. The tube is stainless steel and not very reactive with the salts in corrosive primers. additionally, I have taken the gas valves apart on at least 15 Hakims and Rasheeds and have never seen rust or corrosion in the valve or port ---- most of them were seized, but it looks like they were seized by carbon, and not rust. A long pipe cleaner soaked in cleaner is all that is usually needed.
TOM
 
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