Did forgers win this game?
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Thread: Did forgers win this game?

  1. #1
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    Default Did forgers win this game?

    I got this SVT mount from Sweden in early 2007. Paid the price of a "real thing" for it. When I posted some pics to this forum the guys here told me I had done well and that I'd have an original mount. However, last summer I was emailed by Molosky who had bought a similar mount in Russia and believed we both may have just two nicely made fakes. He also showed a few pics of original mounts and their markings & machining marks, especially on the inside the "fork", differed from my mount quite a bit.

    Here are some pictures of the mount I got. The other one is a Finn captured (& butchered) and definitely original SVT mount I thought to use as a reference here. Opinions will be appreciated. I hope Molosky will weigh in and perhaps post the pictures he has.

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    Is the first letter of the prefix just badly stamped П or Latin L upside down?

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    Does one of the marks look like Imperial Tula hammer to you?

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    Investment casting marks (?) prevail.

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    In the middle of the cross pin hole there are two extra notches pointing up and down. Repro mounts I've seen appear to have this feature.

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    This retaining screw isn't staked.

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    Cross pin is missing all the inspection marks.


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    Last edited by CH; 01-29-2011 at 05:50 PM.

  2. #2
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    Here are the rest of the pics.

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    No signs of investment casting. All machined construction.

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    No extra notches in the cross pin hole.

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    The head of the screw is staked.

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    Inspection marks on the cross pin.

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    Real mount isn't as wide as this possible fake.

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    Real pin left, fake (?) right. The real one is much bigger.


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    Last edited by CH; 01-29-2011 at 05:52 PM.

  3. #3
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    I do not know these mounts well enough to comment on that.But from my experience with bogus German ww2 helmets.I can say it looks artificially aged with chemical produced rust.Generally the rust from this process looks more redish in color.

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  5. #4
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    Antti, All of mine that are apparently original have identical markings. Only the rifle serial numbers are different.

    Those casting markings and the stampings are definitely suspect. I do not know if I had an original then, and hope I did not post that your was OK. It is a much better mount than the repros we see in the US.

    Hope the pics help.

    Looks like if yours and Molosky's are fake, I got three just like them. None of my retaining pins are proofed. Maybe Vic has some known originals.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails svvt&gersnip 134.JPG  

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    Last edited by mike radford; 01-29-2011 at 05:29 PM.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuhrer View Post
    I do not know these mounts well enough to comment on that.But from my experience with bogus German ww2 helmets.I can say it looks artificially aged with chemical produced rust.Generally the rust from this process looks more redish in color.
    I agree. It's actually strange that there are rust all over but no signs of pitting anywhere. And, after owning real Tula made 91/30 PE top & side mounts, bases and PU mounts for years, I have to admit I don't like the font of the serial number. It's a bit too modern IMHO. The number on the broken mount has somewhat similar font but not the same.
    Last edited by CH; 01-29-2011 at 05:16 PM.

  7. #6
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    It ain't looking good Antti. If these were faked it was quite a while back. I got one of mine more than 5 years ago. They do not look like the reproductions readily available here in the US.

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    Mike, thanks for your input. Did you buy one of yours from willyp? There's one with the same serial number displayed on Imageevent. I agree that if these were made from repros it would have required a lot of work. But, they probably were. I'm interested to hear what Vic has to say. Some real mounts were possibly exported with Finn captured SVT-40s and SVT-38 a long before repros became available...

    A stupid question but have you ever tried to tap the "fork" portion of the mount to table etc. to hear what it sounds like? The broken mount I have resonates like a tuning fork but the suspect sounds really dull. This tells something about the metal, yes?
    Last edited by CH; 01-30-2011 at 03:06 AM.

  9. #8
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    Antti,
    I agree on your aassesment of the quality of steel to harmonics relationship. Any steel used in weapons making is most usually excellent quality and should give that nice ringing sound no matter the piece. Anything that doesn't should be suspect if it can't be proven authentic by other means.
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    Hi guys! The first mount is a good fake. The same in the post # 4.
    Here are originals:
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    Last edited by Molosky; 01-30-2011 at 12:32 PM.

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    original/fake
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    Last edited by Molosky; 01-30-2011 at 01:17 PM.

  12. #11
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    Whew, fortunately I bought all three of mine from the Finnbear back in the 1980's !!! Seems like once the price gets to a certian point, look out here come the fakers! Skid

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    Great string...A sticky? Should be a sticky? Need one like this for the side and top mounts too.

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    Sticky sounds like a good idea. One for top and side mounts would be a good idea too, except it could help the fakers get better. There were several collectors fooled by these things. They are definitely better than the commonly seen reproduction mounts. I have 2 of those.

    Do we know who made them and when? I will have to dig to figure it out but I am guessing I got my first one 7 or 8 years ago.

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    Guys, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions here. Are you sure you're not just looking at two different manufacturers or two different time periods of manufacture? Also, I would think that some of the proof marks and staking wouldn't be applied until after they were fitted to a rifle and accepted.

    I sold an original scope and mount here about 2 years ago that was bought from Finnbear in the 1990's. It had many of the same features that are labeled "fake" here. In fact, most of the mounts pictured on the web came from that batch that Finnbear found so I am definitely not ready to label those anything less than original.

    About 10 or 12 years ago I had noticed that many of the mounts that turned up for sale or in pictures on the web, were from two series of serial number prefixes. In fact, several were close in serial number, less than a hundred apart. I posted that observation here on the forum and and others recalled the story of Finnbear finding a box of SVT mounts. That seemed to account for the close serial numbers and similar features for many of the mounts.

    Maybe others can add more.

    Cass

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssniper View Post
    Whew, fortunately I bought all three of mine from the Finnbear back in the 1980's !!! Seems like once the price gets to a certian point, look out here come the fakers! Skid
    Skid, You may want to take a look at your mount. All 3 I pictured came from finnbear and I know of at least 4 more just like them that all came from finnbear. These are the mounts in question as best as I can find out with my research. If fake, they have fooled a bunch of folks.

    Apparently Tula had two locations for SVT related production in late 1941. Seems possible that two factories were making mounts and they may not be identical.??

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    I believe we may be thinking of Springfield Armory or Winchester or Detroit. Remember these were made in the old Soviet Union of the '30's and '40's very little quality control on items like this and as the war progressed even worse. I traveled with the Finnbear, and I can not believe he would have a batch of SVT mounts made up when the rifles were almost impossible to find anf the scopes were even more rare. Unless he had a crystal ball. I bought mine in the late '80's to maybe '91 or '92 at the Great Western in Pomona. If he knowingly sold us fakes, then I am a very poor judge of character. If an when I sell mine, I will advertise where they came form and that I believe them to be real. I have been to the Museums in 9 of the Soviet Hero Cities and Hero Brest Fortress and have studied any sniper I could get a look at, there are many variations, and the PU series is a whole different program. Just my two cents. Vic ?? Skid

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    Im in the same boat. If they are fakes then they are the best fakes I have ever seen. Tula sniper production was interrupted in late 41 and early 42 due to the seige and the production line was moved by train to the Urals at the Mednagorsk facility. I'm just fishing here but is it possible the mount production was shifted to a different facility as well? If not I'm in the same boat as the others with several of these on rifles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssniper View Post
    I believe we may be thinking of Springfield Armory or Winchester or Detroit. Remember these were made in the old Soviet Union of the '30's and '40's very little quality control on items like this and as the war progressed even worse. I traveled with the Finnbear, and I can not believe he would have a batch of SVT mounts made up when the rifles were almost impossible to find anf the scopes were even more rare. Unless he had a crystal ball. I bought mine in the late '80's to maybe '91 or '92 at the Great Western in Pomona. If he knowingly sold us fakes, then I am a very poor judge of character. If an when I sell mine, I will advertise where they came form and that I believe them to be real. I have been to the Museums in 9 of the Soviet Hero Cities and Hero Brest Fortress and have studied any sniper I could get a look at, there are many variations, and the PU series is a whole different program. Just my two cents. Vic ?? Skid
    Skid, I am not making any judgement about finnbear or whether he had these made. I am pointing out mine came from him, as did Vic's, and a couple other member's here all came from finnbear. If they are not original, and I am not sure at this point, he could have been fooled too. Hopefully these are original Soviet WW2 production.

  20. #19
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    1942:
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  21. #20
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    Thanks Molosky. Excellent job with those pictures, especially with museum conditions.

    That rifle, and probably the mount, appear to be heavily refurbed. The receiver markings are kinda weak. The mount lacks the rifle serial prefix, which is interesting and maybe restamped(vs previously unissued?). Mount lacks the usual markings on the rear we see in CH's mounts and that are present on the mounts I posted(but slightly different). I suspect they were there before the refurb of the mount or maybe the mount was a new unissued mount that never had the other markings?? The retaining pin looks like yours with Tula proof. Wonderful rifle.

    Ludmilla did not mount that scope. Makes one wanta get in there and straighten that scope out. Nice 41 dated Progress scope. Thanks for posting.
    Last edited by mike radford; 02-05-2011 at 02:59 PM.

  22. #21
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    This mount from my collection:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails qwq115 035.jpg  

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    Last edited by Molosky; 02-05-2011 at 12:58 PM.

  23. #22
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    more:
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  24. #23
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    .
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  25. #24
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    .
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    Last edited by Molosky; 02-05-2011 at 03:06 PM.

  26. #25
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    Thanks for the great pictures, Anton! It's interesting to see that some of these mounts have the serial number stamped with the same font as it is on the rifle.

  27. #26
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    Thanks for the great pictures Molosky. None of the mounts you show have a prefix to the serial number on the mount. Antti's does have a prefix. Some of the mounts you picture have a marking on the right side near the rear and and some do not. Some of the pins have a proof and some do not. I am not sure we have a definite pattern here such that a total conclusion can be made. Plus, we have the variable of possible refurbishment of some of the mounts which could add and/or subtract some markings.

    What are you guys seeing to help on this because I am likely missing something. Love that 5115 rifle with matching mount. Pretty safe bet that one has an original mount.

  28. #27
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    Mike, check Anton's last post. There's actually one mount with ЖБ prefix. And, this time the "Б" looks like Б and not 6. The font is notably smaller than those without the prefix, just like on the butchered mount I got.

    Does anyone have an observation of an Izhevsk made mount? Most of the Izhevsk SVTs have scope rails but are there any mounts out there?

  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike radford View Post
    Some of the mounts you picture have a marking on the right side near the rear and and some do not. Some of the pins have a proof and some do not.
    No. All original mounts have a marking on the right side near the rear and all original pins have Tula proof.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CH View Post
    Does anyone have an observation of an Izhevsk made mount? Most of the Izhevsk SVTs have scope rails but are there any mounts out there?
    Antti, Izhevsk didn't make mounts for SVT, only Tula. I've seen ones Izhevsk sniper SVT with Tula made mount.

  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molosky View Post
    No. All original mounts have a marking on the right side near the rear and all original pins have Tula proof.

    Thanks for clarification. I can not see those marks in a few of the pictures.

  32. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CH View Post
    Mike, check Anton's last post. There's actually one mount with ЖБ prefix. And, this time the "Б" looks like Б and not 6. The font is notably smaller than those without the prefix, just like on the butchered mount I got.

    Does anyone have an observation of an Izhevsk made mount? Most of the Izhevsk SVTs have scope rails but are there any mounts out there?
    Thanks Antti. Those 3 pics did not download on my computer before my post. They are new to me. Those markings on the back and serial numbers are different than the others Anton posted and look more like my mounts. Those three pictures do show that there is no single marking types on the back at the very least. On the back we have different number sizes, with and without prefixes, proofs up high on both sides on some, none up high visible on some others. Definitely interesting.

    I have a picture of an example of the common repro mount available here. They are definitely different than the three mounts I pictured and are of a lower quality steel. They are not marked or numbered either. Pics posted to show the common replica(1&5), compare with the suspect mounts(3&4) and one more pic of the suspect mounts.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails svvt&gersnip 149.JPG  

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    Last edited by mike radford; 02-05-2011 at 07:51 PM.

  33. #32
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    great pics, everyone. Molosky, what kind of camera do you use?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike radford View Post
    T Those three pictures do show that there is no single marking types on the back at the very least. On the back we have different number sizes...
    It depends on type of a font which was used on a rifle. I think that mounts with a small font were made in 1940-1941.
    Those mounts which don't have markings on a back part have them near to the retaining screw.

    Original screws have a step of a carving of 0.5 mm, and at fake it of 0.7 mm.

    Original spring of the buffer is big, and the fake is small.
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    Last edited by Molosky; 02-06-2011 at 04:43 AM.

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    bump to read

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    I want to point out that the inside of the suspect mounts show the finish tipical of investment casting : is it possible that such a technology was in use in the Urss in early 40's in the weapons industry? The original mounts are machined also inside ...

  37. #36
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    Great shots and fantastic examples Molosky.
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    Sticky candidate???
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