Fake German SS .22 belt buckle gun
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Thread: Fake German SS .22 belt buckle gun

  1. #1
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    Default Fake German SS .22 belt buckle gun

    This is a fake German .22 belt buckle gun at a famous Auction House.
    Note the bogus WaA865 and BLN-44-SS markings. If this BLN is a code (very seldom codes are in upper case letters) BLN would be Assmann, Bruder, Fahrradwerk, Leibnitz, Steiermark, Austria. I do have "bln" reported on a 13x64 projectile. Smaller pictures at bottom of page.

    David





    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 401702914.jpg  

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    I saw that in the RKI auction catalogue, too.
    there are some who think the belt buckle guns were all post war fakes - a mythology.

    This is the first engraved one I've seen. I would buy it if it was within my means, they are fascinating as curios.
    They idea of having the firing cord up your sleeve so that as you raised your hands you could fire off a salvo is amusing.

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    Hi David, THX for the pix.
    This is indeed a very obvious fake; file it in the "fantasy piece" category.
    I doubt they were ever really originally made, I've never seen one (no even a picture) which was certified as original.
    Brgds, A
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    What's the asking price. Fake or not, it's interesting, BB

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    Those were made in several variations, saw some in a Museum overseas!

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    It is cool, i would like one of those, fake or not.
    Moved seaside full time now, life IS good !!!

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    The Auction Company estimates the value as $15,000 to $30,000.
    Here is their write up on it.

    David

    Description:
    This is a unique late WWII Nazi/SS marked belt buckle pistol. The reported history of these is that they were originally designed/invented by Louis Marquis, who came up with this concept while interned in a WWI POW camp. As an engineer and inventor, after his release, Marquis refined his original design and in 1943 reportedly received an order to make several examples for Heinrich Himmler for issuance to high ranking "SS" officers for their use in the event of capture. To function this belt pistol, the front belt plate has an aluminum Nazi Army eagle affixed to the front and is hinged and spring loaded to swing open which exposes the four barrels. You then depress two levers which allows the barrel block to swing out. The four triggers are located on the left side which allows you to fire each barrel separately. This particular example follows that design and was made subsequent to this by an unknown maker and which has been very nicely engraved on the face and sides of the buckle in a nice Germanic Oak Leaf and Acorn pattern. This example is marked "BLN" which could have been the wartime code for the actual manufacturer, (unidentified at this time). As noted this example is chambered for a 22 rimfire caliber, and the four barrels that are drilled in a single steel block measuring 1 3/4 inches long. The bottom of the frame is marked "BLN. - 44 - SS ". The various parts or components are marked with a serial number of "2 ", with all of them matching. In addition several of the various parts have a small "Eagle/WaA865" Waffenamt stamped on them. While very unique and collectible in their own right, most existing examples were not officially sanctioned and were made on a custom order basis by unknown parties. Whatever the case, this is a truly unique item that few possess and many desire regardless of history.
    Condition:
    Very fine as custom made with all the metal surfaces still remaining in the white. The various proof marks are all clear and the engraving is very nicely done with clear sharp engraving detail on the face of the belt buckle, edges and top areas. A very unique example of a scarce "SS" belt buckle pistol.

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    Actually, it's NOT the SS eagle - the wingtips are wrong for that. What's been used as the "model" for this design is the regular army pin-on eagle worn on the white summer uniform. ( Of course it's STILL a "blatant FAKE"! )

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    Absolutely correct James N. In my haste to look at the rest of it, I missed that. What a foible, BB

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    I've seen pictures of these before, but never one so fancy. Usually they're pretty plain.

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    What auction house has it ? I would love to watch the drama unfold.
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    It's not so funny if someone actually drops big money on it - legitimizing it to future buyers a few years down the road.
    Curator, the Privett Museum for Unloved & Wayward Guns. Est. 2006.

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    But....does it really shoot?

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    I remember seeing one of these in an old Argosy (sp) type Magazine about 30 years ago. They do shoot.
    added picture of inside. I don't think it would be OK with the Forum Mods to list an active auction.
    David
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 401717810.jpg  


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    Well, indeed this one is so elaborate that it shouts FAKE.
    Whomever tries to sell it knows that (they do state "custom made piece") and is trying to swindle somebody outof big bucks.
    Also, most of the ones which show up are plain and more realistic looking.
    I have seen one or two in museums here in europe, they're not that rare, but they were never advertised as original.
    Some lady in belgium found one in the safe after her husband's demise sometime last year. She thought $$$ as it came with a note that said so.
    Of course it was soon discovered to be fake.
    The thing is: What would be the practical use of these, and why in .22lr (which is not a basic european caliber) ???
    Not even Goering himself would wear one of these.
    BUT, they do have a value in the Nazi fantasy pieces department as such.
    Like they say in french: "Selon la tete du client", "as per the buyer's face" ...

    A
    I'd rather have a bottle in frontame than a frontal lobotomy.
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    WaA 86 should be bdr R Ehrhardt Pössneck, Thüringen 1942 - 44. I'm only familiar with them making leather gear like ammo pouches etc .....??? But what the heck ....on a fake you can find any type of stampings, just like on the fake cameras witall kinds of Nazi markings coming out of Russia :-)
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    Seems to me that any WaffenAmt proofs would be a dead giveaway since the SS wasn't part of the Heeres Waffen Amt procurement program and their weapons weren't proofed by the WaA. I've owned a couple of Bergmann MP35's that were SS proofed and neither of them had any WaffenAmt proofs like an Army weapon would have. The same is true of pistols and other special weapons. Unless they were Army procurement items they wouldn't have any WaA proofs.

    Frank

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    Off and on through the years I have seen these in books and magazines. It might be from Doug's collection, but then I think it would say so.

    I would think (but don't know the rules here on this forum) that stating the auction house and not pointing to the auction itself is not a violation?

    a google search of the phrase; This is a unique late WWII Nazi/SS marked belt buckle pistol. shows it to be at a certain auction company...

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    It's definitely cool, but for that kind of money, not cool enough!

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    I think ATF recognises some of these as legit, on what basis and which ones I do not know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edward tinker View Post

    I would think (but don't know the rules here on this forum) that stating the auction house and not pointing to the auction itself is not a violation?

    a google search of the phrase; This is a unique late WWII Nazi/SS marked belt buckle pistol. shows it to be at a certain auction company...

    Ed
    Ed,

    I am not sure I understand this quote?. Why would it be a violation to name the auction house, in this case RIA and not the auction itself?. These guys have a really poor record with 3rd Reich artifacts, it would not take me much to show that. I have used them in the past and have been happy but you must use care and know what your buying.

    Best,

    Kris

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    Anyone else notice the eagle badge has been overlaid over an ENGRAVED eagle underneath? LOOK CAREFULLY - you'll see they used a different beak on the engraving, and you can see the wing outline for the wings too. REALL poorly done!

    RIA is dubious at best. Ever notice how 90% of the rifles on there look seriously refinished before auction? How the stocks always have that glow... someone doinks with the stuff before it's photographed for sure.



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    Very good Vulch, still, I would love to own one, it is a cool little thing.
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    Probably an overlay, because the eagle under it looks like a buzzard. I remember "Argosy" and, I believe "True" magazines advertising these in the 1960s---well prior to 1968, anyway. Seems like they were $50.00-75.00 excluding postage.

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    I like it for 50.00 75.00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vid View Post
    Ed,

    I am not sure I understand this quote?. Why would it be a violation to name the auction house, in this case RIA and not the auction itself?. Best,

    Kris
    HUH??

    I said it might be a violation to post an auction, but did not feel it would be a violation to post the auction house?

    On my forums, it is OK to post auction links, as we as moderators feel, that, why would it matter?

    But that is up to the owner of the forum....

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by edward tinker View Post
    HUH??

    I said it might be a violation to post an auction, but did not feel it would be a violation to post the auction house?

    On my forums, it is OK to post auction links, as we as moderators feel, that, why would it matter?

    But that is up to the owner of the forum....

    Ed
    I read your quote to mean that it might be a forum violation to name the auction without pointing to the auction. That is why it mattered, could not tell what you meant. Drive a link right to it, take their photos, do whatever if the item is to be discussed. Sorry, if I misunderstood.

    Kris

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    For what it is worth, a late friend collector told me around 1962 that he had gone to Liège to buy a gun from a private collector ... this man made such buckles in small quantity (this was a surprise to my friend, he didn't know it) and the caliber was larger as .22 ... but I don't remember if it was .25 (6,35) or .32 (7,65). I never had one in my hands and don't believe in original WWII ones. In those days there was this fairytale that it was "the weapon of the last stand" when captured ... oh yeah!
    Last edited by Big commander; 03-22-2012 at 07:20 PM.

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    Here is another one of these guns, sold by RIA for big bucks. It is marked with a German "DRP" and is 7.65 cal.
    Also links to others I found on the NET.

    David

    -

    http://www.liveauctionworld.com/Rare...Eagle_i9752697

    _
    http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=119168
    -

    http://recon.forumactif.us/t412-ss-belt-buckle-guns
    -

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    Mechanics at work

    I admire the work but please ... don't underestimate my intelligence! Good fantasy ... not a grain of reality!

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    Still one of the coolest things I have seen, would love to own one.
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    For $50-$75 I'd buy one in a heartbeat (even if it came without any kind of German emblem... since they're modern production anyway they might as well put whatever emblem the buyer wants on the front of the device). That said, I'd be willing to wager that someone with a beer gut would try to CCW one of these and end up in the hospital shortly after they were announced for mass production.
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    COOL!!

    My only knowlage of these comes from 'Sargent Rock of Easy Co.' when the comic ran a one page discription of its issue and use, the background picture is grinning SS General gunning down his captor/guard, with a sly smile, Teeth clenching a cigarret onna holder ,hand on hip and all ~~LOL!!~~

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    I did send a note to the Auction house a couple weeks ago - just got this reply in the last few minutes :

    Dear Rick,



    Thank you for your information regarding Lot 1643. The engraved belt buckle pistol is listed as being “Nazi marked”. We are not indicating that it has been military issued, just that they were working on pistols “reportedly”. The remainder of the description indicates the markings on the belt buckle pistol and the mechanics. It does have very fine engraving and is a lovely piece, but not something that I can say is an officially sanctioned pistol. In fact the closing line of the description reads,

    “While very unique and collectible in their own right, most existing examples were not officially sanctioned and were made on a custom order basis by unknown parties. Whatever the case, this is a truly unique item that few possess and many desire regardless of history.”



    I hope that the information listed is not misleading as we intend to be straight forward with our clients, but we do provide the description for the purpose of informing the exact markings and history when available. If I can answer any additional questions or be of further assistance, please let me know.



    Sincerely,



    Casandra Braeckevelt

    Customer Service Representative
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    Quote Originally Posted by d-square View Post
    I remember the first time I saw one of these it was years ago on T.V. around the time of the crime bill 1994ish, when I "think" Lloyd Bentson (can't remember his title then" was going through either the FBI or ATF and they had one and were describing to him what it was. I don't remember what caliber they said it was. It looked like the black one shown a few posts up.
    I know the TV episode you saw, it was on TALES OF THE GUN, episode was called "guns of the bizarre" it showed a 'buckle gun" but the eagle on it was a U.S. ARMY Warrant officer eagle.

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    Fairytales are just what they are ... fairytales!

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    Greetings,

    Sorry for responding so late to this topic, but I only recently found this thread (and website).

    I am the owner of the Nazi belt buckle pistol in question

    I understand some of the comments made (others were out in left field), but lets review. There is very little known about these pieces other than there is no evidence they were ever placed into serial production. All were samples presumable submitted (or in the process of being submitted) at war's end. I know of no way or anybody who can make a claim that they are genuine or fake with absolute certainty.

    It was offered for sale with the possibility that it was not possible to absolutely ascertain that it was genuine.

    I acquired it in the mid 1980's while living in Alaska. The seller provided me with a bound copy of the catalog of the auction of the Gregory Wareheim Arms Collection. This auction was held on October 26 and 27, 1982 by Richard A. Bourne Co of Hyannus, Massachusetts.

    The Wareheim Collection was originally formed by Harry W. Wright of Baltimore, Maryland, Greg Wareheim's grandfather. Harry Wright has a distinguished history in the field of arms collecting, having been a member of many of the country's leading gun collecting associations, such as the Maryland Arms Collectors and the American Society of Arms Collectors.

    This item was prominently featured in the referenced catalog.

    Their writeup in the catalog is, I believe, a bit more informative than the recent writeup, but both I find as accurate. From the 1982 catalog:

    "Nazi belt buckle pistols are perhaps some of the most colorful and rare of all the oddity pistols, and frankly the most suspect to fakes, complicated by the fact that no one seems to know just how to tell a superb fake from the real thing, or just what is the real thing! This pistol has been very, very carefully examined, and there is a very strong possibility that it is a genuine Nazi produced pistol; but it is not guaranteed as such, simply because there appears to be no way that anyone can determine without question that this one is in fact genuine. The quality of workmanship is what would be expected from the Germans, considering that these were apparently produced towards the end of the war; and apparently they were all tool room models rather than production pieces. The screw threads are all metric, the nickel plated finish overall produced by the Watts method, which gives a softer finish than the organic brighteners used today, which give a harder and glossier finish. The Nazi proofs are not exactly like those found on other Nazi guns or listed in various reference books. but the difference is very obvious, although the overall design is the same. Simple logic would indicate that the small design shop that originally produced these would have had its own proof stamps, which could very well be different in a slight degree from the standard stamps used by the large factories. Further, if a faker was going to the trouble and expense to make a special proof die, one would think that he would make an exact copy of a known Nazi proof, rather than dream up his own little "improvement"."

    I traded this for an excellent Luftwaffe drilling I had at the time.

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    A lot of words just to say: Fake.
    Admittedly a very nice interesting fake, but still a postwar fake.
    BRGDS, A
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    I would rather have the Luft Drilling.
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    A multitude of good arguments against these pieces, they are neat but kind of stops there for me.

    K

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    Of course these "instruments" are nice and everybody would have liked one to have ... at a reasonable price. The one that proclames to have an "original buckle gun" of the era MUST come with proof ... or keep his mouth shut! Even the most renowned auction houses! Let's play the game as it should be played between gentlemen and not between liars.

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    I recall seeing this in "Firearms Curiosa" years ago.

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    Hu ... "curiosa" doesn't mean "genuine" ... Has somebody ever seen an old catalog were such buckles were for sale BEFORE or DURING WWII? Extremely curious about this! The only thing we are sure of is that these gizmos made their appearance AFTER 1945.

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    Hi everyone,

    Sorry to revive an old thread but I have a bit of a conundrum!

    I'm new to this forum so thanks for your help in advance. I work for an auction house in the UK and recently we had someone walk through the door with what appears to be one of the much disputed Nazi belt buckle pistols. I know that there was a similar example sold in the USA by a different auction house (I'll mention no names!) but there was a large deal of controversy on certain gun forums about the idea of it being a fake.

    I was wondering if anyone much more knowledgeable than myself could help shed some light on the matter. I've attached some pictures for reference and I would appreciate some guidance on issue and any thoughts you may have as to whether it's actually genuine. The owner in question is mostly interested in whether it's real, but if we do sell it the last thing I would want to do is sell a fake marked as the real thing. I know many believe these to be post-war fantasies, but perhaps there is some truth to the story.

    Thanks again for all your help in advance,
    Caroline

    If you click on the link below it will take you to a gallery of some of the pictures I have of the piece as not sure if all can be hosted here:

    http://imageupper.com/g/?S020001006H13745712931955223

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    Caroline,

    I think everything has been said about these. Totally cool and I would love to own one, but likely never to be proven authentic . Pleas let me know if it goes to auction, and if shippable to the U.S.
    Moved seaside full time now, life IS good !!!

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