SVT scope and mount on eBay.....sold for $3,050....ugh, wow
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Thread: SVT scope and mount on eBay.....sold for $3,050....ugh, wow

  1. #1
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    Default SVT scope and mount on eBay.....sold for $3,050....ugh, wow

    Seems like a shocking price to me....

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc


    Don't know if this link will work, but if not, just do a search under "completed auctions" for SVT

    Merci! Coup d etat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coup de tat View Post
    Seems like a shocking price to me....

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc


    Don't know if this link will work, but if not, just do a search under "completed auctions" for SVT

    Merci! Coup d etat
    That's weird as the seller said he'd sell it for $2500 if anyone contacted him..Someone wasn't paying attention..
    "I must hurry, for there they go, and I am their leader!" Ghandi

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    There seem to be brush marks and scratch marks everywhere. No one seems to know exactly what an original looks like...every time one with glossy black blueing,and stamped markings shows up, people just go crazy.

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    My AIM 91/30 original sniper rifle came with an original SVT40 Scope, so does that mean I could get 4k for my setup if I posted it on gunbroker!?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soldaten View Post
    My AIM 91/30 original sniper rifle came with an original SVT40 Scope, so does that mean I could get 4k for my setup if I posted it on gunbroker!?!?
    The scopes are easily found. The mounts, originals, not reproductions, are almost impossible to find.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drazil View Post
    There seem to be brush marks and scratch marks everywhere. No one seems to know exactly what an original looks like...every time one with glossy black blueing,and stamped markings shows up, people just go crazy.
    EBAY set is 100% original.
    Here is a thread with excelent description of original mounts
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-win-this-game
    Fake mount from that topic is still considered by many collectors, who payed for them big money, as original.
    I can't even imagine, how will change situation on market, when collectors comunity will realize, how many fakes are already in their hands...

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    still even if its 100% correct.. with that kind of money you can buy 3 SVT.... RIFLES

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    Hmm,seems fishy. That person with the "0" for feedback could of been him bidding up the other guy. I have seen it happen before.
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    I'd be interested to see the elevation turret as most SVT 40 scopes had elevation turrets that were converted for use on the MN Snipers. Seller did not show a picture of it, makes me wonder. Spacing between 0 and 3 on unmodified scope is irregular especially between 0 and 1 on converted ones the spacing was much closer and reasonably consistent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coup de tat View Post
    Seems like a shocking price to me....

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc


    Don't know if this link will work, but if not, just do a search under "completed auctions" for SVT

    Merci! Coup d etat
    having sold it for that much, and collecting the money are 2 different things

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    There is a fake PE scope mount and base up there now though.. Sand blasted accumounts wth fake russian stamps.
    Jack of all milsurps, master of none.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratnik View Post
    EBAY set is 100% original.
    Here is a thread with excelent description of original mounts
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-win-this-game
    Fake mount from that topic is still considered by many collectors, who payed for them big money, as original.
    I can't even imagine, how will change situation on market, when collectors comunity will realize, how many fakes are already in their hands...
    I have a mount I bought about five years ago from a guy who said he got it from Finnbear in 1992.
    It's the same as the other suspect ones shown in the above thread and that others have and apparently also Vic.
    The question about them is if they aren't real, then Finnbear fooled a lot of people. The suspected FinBear ones are less quality then some of the better machined ones though much better quality then any of the more recent repro made ones. One Possibly is they were made at another factory that was relocated due to the Germans advance and being later were rougher in quality. In any case the jury is still out on them. Ray
    Last edited by RayG_Wisconsin; 07-19-2012 at 10:40 PM.

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    that same very set was relisted on ebay about a week ago and pulled 2 days later, with $2K buy-it now... Something tells me it was not 'kosher'. It also had bids and no reserve this time around...

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    I am also not convinced that the Finnbear mounts are "fakes". I also don't think that any of the "accepted as authentic" mounts are necessarily representative of the entire production run. From what I have read, these black original mounts are supposedly machined in their entirety, and this is the hallmark of a "real" mount. Be that as it may...machining is a very innefficient method for mass production, and if 50,000+ mounts were produced, some method of expediting the process would almost certainly be employed. If I were to "fake" a mount myself, machining, or casting would be the easiest way. The widely available repro mounts are a single piece casting. A small production lot could easily be produced in a machine shop with minimal set-up costs, though this gets prohibitively expensive if competing with more suitable mass-production methods. Probably the most difficult (or certainly the least cost-effective) way to fake would be the combination of casting, stamping, welding, and machining employed in these "suspect" Finnbear mounts.

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    I also have one of finnbear mounts. Some say real, others fake. Seems like former soviet comrades are stuck on idea real ones are all identical... To me its real, to few experts it seems real, all russian/ukrainian collectors screm 'reproduction'... Too convincing to be a repro to me, personally

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    I can show the pics of original svt mounts. So you can compare with yours. Where wasn't any alternative production of Tokarev's mounts. It's a fantasy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Molosky View Post
    I can show the pics of original svt mounts. So you can compare with yours. Where wasn't any alternative production of Tokarev's mounts. It's a fantasy!
    If it will be necessary, I will show photos of my relic mount, it is identical to yours.
    As it was said by Molosky, mounts were produced only by 1 factory. Only difference that is possible - 2 variations of serial numbers - with letter prefix, and without. Such items as different shape, another screw thread lead, recoil spring (thickness and length), recoil spring buffer shape, cross pin (another size and shape), markings, are not small differences. All evidences are in this topic.
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-win-this-game
    If it is necessary, I will post photos of few more original mounts, that not belongs to me
    All mounts in museums, not numerous mounts from stocks, original home stored mounts, and relic mounts are identical, and they are different from Finn's mounts. Only mounts from 1 source are radically another. Yes, they are similar from first view, but look to the details, almost all elements have small differences.
    Last edited by Ratnik; 07-21-2012 at 01:32 AM.

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    My main point about the Finnbear mounts is why would anyone have bothered to make a repro mount that way? The Finnbear mounts are made of 3 separate pieces (not counting the hinged half rings), one a stamping, two look like castings, or forgings...welded together and then finish machined. It really seems to me that modern production of these mounts would be cost-prohibitive when you consider that these showed up on the market before the current demand and price spikes of the original mounts. And if you were going through all that trouble, why not make an exact copy of the "known" originals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drazil View Post
    My main point about the Finnbear mounts is why would anyone have bothered to make a repro mount that way? The Finnbear mounts are made of 3 separate pieces (not counting the hinged half rings), one a stamping, two look like castings, or forgings...welded together and then finish machined. It really seems to me that modern production of these mounts would be cost-prohibitive when you consider that these showed up on the market before the current demand and price spikes of the original mounts. And if you were going through all that trouble, why not make an exact copy of the "known" originals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drazil View Post
    My main point about the Finnbear mounts is why would anyone have bothered to make a repro mount that way? The Finnbear mounts are made of 3 separate pieces (not counting the hinged half rings), one a stamping, two look like castings, or forgings...welded together and then finish machined. It really seems to me that modern production of these mounts would be cost-prohibitive when you consider that these showed up on the market before the current demand and price spikes of the original mounts. And if you were going through all that trouble, why not make an exact copy of the "known" originals.
    There is a least one more reproduction, that was made that way as orginal. It was made in Ukraine, at Izym factory. They were issued as fair reproductions. Also factory produced reproductions of of PU and PU-SVT scopes and PU mounts, but currently production is stoped. And quantity of produced mounts, are much less then 50.000+. I don't know exatly how much, but near 200-300 pieces.
    Here are photos. All mounts are repros, except relic mount at photo#4. Especially look to the "aged" mount. Some details are also not similar to originals, markings are very bad, but anyway, they look very close to original, in some details even closer than mounts from Finland.
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    Last edited by Ratnik; 07-24-2012 at 06:52 AM.

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    few more
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 6337713.jpg  

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    Thanks to all of those who have posted information and photos. Despite all your help, I'm sorry to say that I am still confused. I have no "hands-on" experience with these mounts and I'm afraid that having first hand exposure to both good and bad mounts is the only way to understand the differences. Maybe others can get it just by looking at the photos, but I do not trust my judgment in doing so.

    That's way after 30 years of lusting after a Tokarev sniper I still do not have one. I came close to jumping on the Finn Bear bandwagon back in the early '90s, but I hesitated too long and he sold the handful he had. After reading these threads, I still don't know whether that was good luck or bad. Can someone please summarize the situation? Are the Finn Bear mounts real or repro?
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    Ratnick:

    Please bear with me. I know I'm being a little thick-headed on this. Out of the 24 photos you just posted the only original mount is the one in poor condition in the 4th photo (your file no. 4187061)? The rest are reproductions?

    Thanks.

    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    Thanks to all of those who have posted information and photos. Despite all your help, I'm sorry to say that I am still confused. I have no "hands-on" experience with these mounts and I'm afraid that having first hand exposure to both good and bad mounts is the only way to understand the differences. Maybe others can get it just by looking at the photos, but I do not trust my judgment in doing so.

    That's way after 30 years of lusting after a Tokarev sniper I still do not have one. I came close to jumping on the Finn Bear bandwagon back in the early '90s, but I hesitated too long and he sold the handful he had. After reading these threads, I still don't know whether that was good luck or bad. Can someone please summarize the situation? Are the Finn Bear mounts real or repro?
    Somebody could not accept my opinion, and facts that I pointed, but opinion of Molosky is much valuable - I think nobody in ex-USSR collectors community have more knowledge than him in soviet scopes\mounts


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    Ratnick:

    Please bear with me. I know I'm being a little thick-headed on this. Out of the 24 photos you just posted the only original mount is the one in poor condition in the 4th photo (your file no. 4187061)? The rest are reproductions?

    Thanks.
    Yes, you are correct If it will be neccesary, I will post more photos of this reproductions
    Last edited by Ratnik; 07-22-2012 at 04:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratnik View Post
    Yes, you are correct If it will be neccesary, I will post more photos of this reproductions
    OK. I think I understand. Thank you for all your help!
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

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    Richard, Did you read the old thread on the sniper forum. It is linked here somewhere. There are a lot of mount pictures posted and a lot of good information there. See Ratnik's post number 6 for the link and thanks Ratnick for pics and opinions. Molosky's posts were excellent, as was his photography. Much thanks to Molosky too.

    I have 3 SVT snipers, two Finnbear mounts(had 3), and a couple of repro mounts. Most of the repro mounts are an easy spot. The Finnbear mounts are a much harder call but if you do not think they are original they too are easy to spot. Every one I have seen has a marking with a 10 underneath. If you think they are fakes, look for the 10.

    If Finnbears mounts are not reproductions, and at this point I feel nearly sure that they are, they would have to be post war production regardless. Post war production would make little sense, unless Finland decided they should have some in stores in the event they needed to use scoped SVTs. This too is extremely unlikely.

    Personally, I would not spend big money on a Finnbear mount at this time. I would spend little money though as other replicas are not as good. In fact, I would not buy any SVT mount unless I was pretty sure it was original. This would require me to send pictures to Molosky, CH, Vic, Ratnick and anyone else I could think of for an opinion first(provided this was possible).

    It is my opinion that there are almost no, none, zip SVT scope mounts in the US. There could be a few but I have yet to see one I could be certain as original in the flesh or even posted on the net. They are definitely hen's teeth. As a result, extreme caution when buying one is essential as it will be expensive.

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    I know, Iam opening the old can of worms ,but I purchased a SVT mount from Finnbear in the early 90's when he ran his last ad in the Shotgun news for them .I called and spoke to him and asked how he got them? He said they came from Russia and he had a contact there that he knew very well and was able to get them for him. HE was asking $750.00 each and I was very hesitant about paying that amount etc. HE indiated that a number of military gun collectors, here in the states , that are very knowlegable in Russian weapons have seen the mounts and they are sure they are the real deal !HE said some of these collectors had bought the mounts for use on their SVT rifles. Based on this and collectors that had many more years than me in the study of Russian military firearms I made the buy. IT seems as time goes on ,no one has a cue as to what a real SVT mount looks like. I would venture to say that if ten SVT mounts where placed side by side on a table and only one was real ,and we have five so called experts pick out the real one ,they would not all agreed to which one it is!!So is there one expert we can ALL agree on that has the final word if your mount is the real deal? I think not. AFTER all Vic, also purchased mounts from Finnbear and I have a great deal of confidence in him. Because we can not agree what is real or fake we should pay no more than $175.00 for any mount and treat all of them as fakes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pop63 View Post
    I would venture to say that if ten SVT mounts where placed side by side on a table and only one was real ,and we have five so called experts pick out the real one ,they would not all agreed to which one it is!!So is there one expert we can ALL agree on that has the final word if your mount is the real deal? I think not.
    There is no need to be an expert to see the difference. You just need to know where you must look.
    Read very accurately this topic, and links below, and try to compare all parts of the mount.
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-win-this-game
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...e-sniper-scope
    All necessary is already written - and in most cases you will be able to identify repro mount.
    I post one picture below, I don't want to post anything more (don't want to help fakers). Note the difference in curves.
    Of course, only this is not enough to identify mount 100% correctly
    But this is only one of numerous differences, you just need to spend some time to see them.
    Last edited by Ratnik; 11-25-2012 at 04:35 AM.

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    So, let me be clear ,any mount that Finnbear HAD sold, is with out a douht ,a fake ! And there is no one in the U.S. that can look at a mount and tell the owner of it that it is real. This is based on your professional opinion. WHEN I compare my Finnbear mount to your posted picture it is the same so can I now download your post and use it to confirm that my mount is real. Let's set some guide lines for prices for SVT mounts . The first is the run of the mill fake being sold by Gunparts corp. and others on the net. Gunparts catalog is $160.00 - The second is Finnbears could be real or not, but so good to fool many of the advanced collectors in America at $850.00. Mount 3 WHICH only a very select few in the Russian advanced collector group can say for sure is beyond any question real at $2,000.00 and up. Mike Radford thinks. in his opinioin. that all mounts here in the U.S, loose or attached to a SVT should be condersided fake,and if there are any real ones he has never seen one! AS far as the so called experts that withhold information on how to identify fake items in order to prevent the forgers from making fakes is very short sighted. Belive me the forgers are ahead of you and the only people who are harmed is the average collector who purchases a item in good faith and then later is told BY THE expert you had been taken. One of reasons to make use of the fourm is to share the members knowage between each other and allow each member to grow their knowledge base making them a better collector and consumer. I wonder if we are meeting that goal ?

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    Very interesting topic I have to say with a lot of good info.
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    Thanks to Ratnik and Molosky for posting detailed photos to help average collectors like myself spot fakes and see what an original mount looks like.

    The Finnbear mount in the second photo looks like it's had some 'artificially induced' rust. Difficult to be sure, though, just going by a photo.

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    Ratnik is the man.
    Quote Originally Posted by jjjxlr8 View Post
    Thanks to Ratnik and Molosky for posting detailed photos to help average collectors like myself spot fakes and see what an original mount looks like.

    The Finnbear mount in the second photo looks like it's had some 'artificially induced' rust. Difficult to be sure, though, just going by a photo.

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    This and the linked thread are the best info I have seen on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pop63 View Post
    So, let me be clear ,any mount that Finnbear HAD sold, is with out a douht ,a fake ! And there is no one in the U.S. that can look at a mount and tell the owner of it that it is real.
    It's impossible to see\track and analyze all mounts that he had sold, so I don't (and have no right) state this. But all that were posted here, at Gunboards, and at other boards - yes.
    I hope many guys read linked threads, make their own conclusions, and now see the difference

    Quote Originally Posted by pop63 View Post
    Mike Radford thinks. in his opinioin. ...... and if there are any real ones he has never seen one!
    I also write the same at one of the linked threads. I mean that at that moment I don't saw at least one at any board or auction.
    I doesn't mean that they don't exist. Key words are "I" and "at that moment". I, and Mike also, can't know everything.
    But currently I must update this statement - recently I saw one bringback mount.
    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/equipm...-scopes-21916/
    And here is 1/2 of SVT mount (with cutted bottom)
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...unt-what-is-it


    Quote Originally Posted by pop63 View Post
    Mount 3 WHICH only a very select few in the Russian advanced collector group can say for sure is beyond any question real at $2,000.00 and up
    Nothing strange that ex-ussr collectors have their own opinion at this area as they have very valuable advantages - a possibility to analyze mounts in museums, relic mount founded at battle fields. And quantity of such mounts is enough to make conclusions - all mounts in museums, relic and attic founded are that type that you called 3.
    And not only russian collectors own original mounts. I saw them all over Europe - Ukraine, Hungary, Poland, Austria, Latvia, Germany, etc., at online auction also.
    Just a few links, that I was able to find quickly, as I don't save them
    http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat59_s.txt
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=561080

    Quote Originally Posted by pop63 View Post
    WHEN I compare my Finnbear mount to your posted picture it is the same so can I now download your post and use it to confirm that my mount is real.
    I'm not a final instance, and I'm not a person who discovered facts posted above.
    Let's be fair, we must say "Thank you" to Molosky, СН, and other guys - and I just support facts that they discovered, and add something new based on their results.
    Now to curves - I already said that this is not enough.
    Why I decided to show this difference, not another? Because it is located outside, it's is very easy to see it, and to see others, you must look inside, unscrew recoil buffer, measure screw threading, etc. I also must say, illustrated difference is not the only difference in curves outside.
    Even different Finnbear's mounts have different angle circularity. But USUALLY most of them have curves as at the picture above. And below I post picture of, I think, updated mount, with another curves, which are very close to original.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    If curves at discussed area are identical to original mount, you must analyze this mount more detailed.
    Why? I think everybody who have 2 hands, 30 minutes of free time, correct instruments and know what he is doing, could correct curves, and they will look very close to original.
    Difference in curves, that I posted, is just one of many other differences. I can't say, which of them is the main, all of them are important. To make final conclusion, you must analyze ALL of them.
    What exactly you must analyze? It is already posted here
    Post #2 , #10, #33 below
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-win-this-game
    Post #33 below
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...e-sniper-scope

    Quote Originally Posted by pop63 View Post
    AS far as the so called experts that withhold information on how to identify fake items in order to prevent the forgers from making fakes is very short sighted. Belive me the forgers are ahead of you and the only people who are harmed is the average collector who purchases a item in good faith and then later is told BY THE expert you had been taken. One of reasons to make use of the fourm is to share the members knowledge between each other and allow each member to grow their knowledge base making them a better collector and consumer. I wonder if we are meeting that goal ?
    In something I agree with you, in something I disagree.
    If you want to know, original mount or not, there are 2 ways - ask collectors community opinion, or define this by yourself.
    If you want to do it by yourself, it will be more useful, when you will note some facts by yourself and will have your own opinion, than simply quote somebody's post. Direction where you must to look was already set by this and linked threads. It's not easy - to get this knowledge you must analyze all available information.
    Such situation is typical for all areas of collecting - you must deeply research area, before you can make your own correct conclusions, when you are buying rare expensive items. It's the true of our times....
    Each collector has it's own secrets. If you don't ready and not sure - ask others.
    And nobody withhold information about SVT mounts, everything necessary is already posted.
    I think many wish a detailed illustrated manual "how to identify original mount".
    But I won't do it...
    Why?
    Just a simple example - I already see many quotes from my thread related to PU scopes on other websites, auctions, and some of them are distorted. Somebody just read it, and post quotes without understanding of whole area. And when some facts are quoted out of context, they loose their meaning
    I begun to think that such information is not for everybody.


    P.S. sorry for possible mistakes in grammar, post is very long
    Last edited by Ratnik; 11-26-2012 at 12:12 PM.

  36. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic View Post
    This and the linked thread are the best info I have seen on this topic.
    I agree with Vic. There is a lot of good info here and contained in the two links. Maybe they should be combined and be a sticky so if the issue comes up again it will be easy to find.

    Thanks to CH, Molosky, Ratnik, Vic and ohers for all their expertise.

  37. #36
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    MIKE, you hit the nail on the head, there should be a sticky set up to combine All of the various links etc. on how to identify Svt scope mounts into one easy accesible sticky . This would consolidate all of the experts knowledge into one data base for the members use. What can the members do to make this happen ?

  38. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pop63 View Post
    MIKE, you hit the nail on the head, there should be a sticky set up to combine All of the various links etc. on how to identify Svt scope mounts into one easy accesible sticky . This would consolidate all of the experts knowledge into one data base for the members use. What can the members do to make this happen ?
    Convince Vic that it should be a sticky.

  39. #38
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    Hats off to Ratnik and Molosky for some impressive work!
    I'm just glad I have a known el-cheapo replica SVT mount and don't have to worry about this too much.

  40. #39
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    Finnbear information from a older tread .

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