Reloading 7.65 Longue
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Thread: Reloading 7.65 Longue

  1. #1
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    Default Reloading 7.65 Longue

    Hi All

    A newbie from New Zealand here. I have been trolling the website for a while & thought I'd better join in. I have only three French arms at present, but my latest acquisition is a Tulle manufactured 1935S semi auto pistol in 7.65 Longue. I have some modified .32 S & W Long cases turned down and would like to handload these, but a few questions first: Can 7.65 Longue be loaded on 30 Carbine dies? or is the overall length too short for seating? Am I better to use 32ACP dies? Can 110 grain M1 Carbine projectiles be used? if so, can anyone recommend a load? Any help or hints for relaoding this calibre would be greatly appreciated.

    Many thanks

  2. #2
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    Use 32 s&w long case turn rim flush with body. Cut a new extractor groove. Trim case to .776 . And full length size. Use any .30 cal cast lead bullet 85 to 90 grains. 2.3 grains of bullseye powder.

  3. #3
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    The .30 carbine dies will not size the case small enough. The .32acp is too small. While 7.65L dies are expensive, they make reloading the cartridge a delight. I use 3.7gr of Unique with a 86gr jacketed SP. The 86gr bullets are the same as used for the 7.62x25mm Broomhandle or Tokarev

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  5. #4
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    Wish someone made readily available brass for the 7.65 longue. Trimming .32 S&W brass works, but it weakens the case head by cutting the extractor groove. Maybe Starline could be persuaded to add this to their list.

  6. #5
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    Hey - Thanks for the useful information! So just to clarify - If 30 Carbine dies will not size the cases small enough and 32acp size them too small, would 32 S&W long dies be ok, using a 30 carb or 32acp shell holder? (until such time as I could organise a set of 7.65L dies?)

  7. #6
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    I have been using 32 magnum dies, seem to work ok.

  8. #7
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    I bought Starline 32 Mag brass as Starline said the 32 mag brass had the same head construction as their 32 S&W long brass. I cut a new extractor groove, shortened, and loaded the brass. with 32 ACP Lee dies which worked very well.
    I first tried loading with up to 2.7 gr. Unique and 110 gr. carbine bullets, but ran out of case capacity and got pie plate sized groups at 25 yards for the effort. The groups were centered at 14" above the POA and barely cycled the pistol. This path obviously led nowhere.

    I also loaded 71 grain 32 ACP bullets sized to 0.308" with 231, but pressures looked high with poor cycling at the top end. Going nowhere, fast, too. I got much better results with the .311-.312 full diameter bullets.

    I bought a 25 round brick of Federal 32 S&W long to cut down and salvage the bullet. I cut the cases down to 0.775" and cut an extractor groove, reloading the cases with 231 and the 98 grain .308" lead bullets. Oh yeah, I was on the right path! 2.8 grains of 231 started cycling the pistol, and 3.4 grains ( as hot as I loaded it) brought the groups down to 6" above POA. All these 5 shot groups shot into about 4" or less. Right bullet, right powder.

    I bought a 2 bullet 100 grain Lee mold as the bullet looked to be the right size and profile. The bullets work well enough, but I'll cut the forward grease groove out of the mold one of these days to make bullets like the S&W long bullet. The bullets work as is, but are less accurate than the S&W long bullets.Click image for larger version. 

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    Top left: 100 grain Lee with case mouth centered on top grease groove, good functioning.
    Bottom left: 98 grain Federal S&W Long bullet
    Right: 71 grain 0.308" 32 ACP bullet, cases with improperly cut extractor groove. Proper groove dimensions was critical in my pistol and the rounds on the right were hopeless for extraction/ejection.

    The problem:

    I took a chamber casting, and found the chamber fairly oversized. The barrel measured 0.350" at the base, and 0.339 at the case mouth. The bore measured 0.310" and the leade looked washed out. I have to wonder if this was GI spec, or some garage hack cut the chamber bigger. I tried using 30 carbine cut to fit the chamber -0.004", but the case would not fit in the single stack magazine. Another dead end.

    One of these days I'll reline this barrel with a .308" liner with a 0.337" chamber.
    Sorry the formatting here is so bad...

  9. #8
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    I use a mix of 32 long dies and I use a .308 expander from 30 mauser/luger dies. The .32 long has a base and mouth dimension of .337, the french long is .336 at the base and .335 at the mouth. I have cut a 30 carbine die in half that I use to bump size the mouth if the .32 isn't giving me the tightness on the bullet I want. My pistol does not slug over .308. My 1935A and 1935S pistols likes the 110 carbine bullets better than the 86 grainers that are typical, I was exceeding the load data and not getting pressure signs but wasn't getting full cycling, switching to the heavier bullets got cycling with a more reasonable load and still no pressure signs. ymmv. Mine group about 2.5" at 25 yards for 48 shots offhand. The 1935S slightly the better of the two with a much better trigger and sight picture for me.

    I use the same dies to load .30 mannlicher for my argentine 1905 pistol as well, although it prefers the 86 grain bullet.

    Frank
    Last edited by burkefj; 07-23-2013 at 12:29 AM.

  10. #9
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    Bertram Bullet Co Pty Ltd, 200 Goulburn Valley Hwy, Seymour, VIC, 3660 has 7,65 mm Long cases that are NOT converted from something else. Don't know if people in New Zealand can buy something from Australia. If you are interest I can supply a pdf file of a dimensioned drawing for the 7,65 mm Long case.
    The Wizard
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  11. #10
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    Thanks for all the valuable info everyone! Wizard - I beleive that in New Zealand we should be able to import ammunition components such as cases from Australia, so will definitely try that option. It is more likely that any difficulty would come from the Australian end exporting such items, as in general their rules regarding firearms & ammunition are more stringent than ours. If you could put up that pdf file, that would be most appreciated thanks.

  12. #11
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    Orona,

    Just a comment here:

    I've used Bertram brass and found it inconsistent dimensionally around the head and extractor groove. Their other brass may be fine, but I am not using their 7.65 Long any more.

    I believe with the diagram The Wizard can supply, some suitable brass (e.g .32 S&W Long) and a little machining you should be able to keep yourself in 7.65 Long for a good while.

    I have used .308 bullets of 85 grains as well as 110 grains (M1 carbine heads) without issue in my MAS 35A. I'm using Unique for the Sierra 85 grain and W231 for the 110 grain. I will be casting some 85 grain lead bullets at some point. I'll have to work up a load for them, but I'll be starting with Unique powder.

    Type 96 LMG

  13. #12
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    Thanks for that "heads up" on the Bertram brass.

    I went to a nearby gunshow at the weekend & met a chap who makes 7.65L from the turned down .32 S & W Long cases using the projectiles (85/86 grain?) from 7.62mm Tokarev pistol ammo. He is making up 50 rounds for me to try and will turn some more cases for me to reload, so looks like I will soon have some ammo to shoot, and be ready with a supply of cases for when I get some dies!

  14. #13

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    Buffalo Arms sells very nice brass they make from Starline S&W .32 long cases. If you buy 100 it's .44/case. They're back ordered but they will fill the order eventually, might be a few months.

    I've been using RCBS dies with the Sierra 85gr bullets and 3.5 - 3.7gr Unique. My first few batches ran great but I started running into problem when I crimped, then backed out the seating die too much to stop crimping and basically encouraged the bullet to not uniformly seat in the case. At least I think that was my issue - I still need to do some testing now that I've improved my seating.

    Old thread here:

    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?69432

  15. #14

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    7.65 French Long.pdfGentlemen: New Guy on the block (Moscow TN). I would like to reopen this "Thread" if it is possible?
    I bought my M1935A in the 80's from Century Arms (I think).

    Found a Guy on Ebay with magazines $26.00 Free shipping.
    Sat down with my Machinist Friend, furnished him copies of the "C.I.P." Drawings for the 7.65 French and
    the 32 S&W Long. He drew the "cutting tool" to use in my Mini Lathe (Harbor Fright)
    All of the above I will be happy to share here.
    As soon as I figure out how to post from my Computer.

    John
    Retired (retarded) Army Rotor Head
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by 1943TheOutlaw; 09-07-2018 at 05:59 PM.

  16. #15
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    If anyone would like a pdf file of the original French specifications covering the 7,65 mm Longue PM me. Only one condition. You must me prepare to translate it into English and supply me with a copy of the translation.
    The Wizard
    Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable
    Necat Omnes! Deus Suos Agnoscet.
    The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

  17. #16
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    Quality cartridge has empty brass listed on there website as a special type run. I left them a message today and will see if they get back to me. Kind of pricey but if you have a thing about properly headstamped brass (I do) then they may become an option. I wonder if the Bertram brass is still spotty as stated above?
    Rico, we'll need special tactical equipment.

  18. #17
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    I really want a 1935, but I have zero reloading experience. Are 7.65L dies commercially available? If so, I think my best bet would be to buy actual 7.65L brass and reload with the proper dies. What say you guys?

    Thanks

  19. #18
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    If you have deep pockets then yes go this route. The brass will be at least $1.25 per case and the dies will run depending on which make you get $60 to $100 a set.

  20. #19
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    Quality Cartridge called me this weekend and said they are planning a run of the 7.65 french long. If you are interested you can call and leave a message. That is what I did. As Tuna points out they are not cheap however if you don't have the time or ability (I have neither) to make you own from revolver brass that is the price to pay to play with these pistols. Good Luck.
    Rico, we'll need special tactical equipment.

  21. #20

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    Starline is making factory 7.65 Longue cases now and it's in stock:

    https://www.starlinebrass.com/765-french-long/

    I've worked up a nice load with 3.8gr of N340, getting about 1200 fps with a Sierra #8005 out of a MAS-38.

    Here's a vid of the load running. Turn it down a bit at the beginning if the wind noise bothers you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj2BMbX6naA

  22. #21
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    The Starline brass is not yet available. They have a contract to make it for a Mr. Hugh Long who is selling it in lots of 250 cases. According to Mr. Long the test batch came out perfect and functioned fine. He is selling it for $110 per 250 cases delivered. I ordered a lot from him and he is getting ready to receive it from them and then will ship it out. Not cheap but it's correct and cheaper then Bertram's problematic brass. After his order is filled I am sure they will offer it and at a cheaper price.

  23. #22
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    Actually Starline shows it as available now- $55 for 250 cases shipped.

    https://www.starlinebrass.com/765-french-long
    This post contains the Amish virus. Since the Amish have no electricity or computers, you are on the honor system. Please delete all your files. Thank you

  24. #23
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    Starline emailed me early in the week that they were shipping 7.65 Long brass.. Huey had no exclusivity in this deal.
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

  25. #24

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    My 500 cases arrived today.

    They look excellent. OAL is dead on with my specs. Rim width is within .001 of my specs.

    The extractor cut looks perfect. Headstamp is star-line-star (their logo) and 7.65 FL.

    I pulled a Buffalo Arms virgin case and it was a tad on the short side. But I've had great results from the Buffalo product except the rims were on the soft side in my opinion, and would get marred and grow a bit after shooting them repeatedly in my MAS-38. I'm hoping these Starline cases perform well.

    I also reload .30 carbine using Starline and have had great results there so I'm optimistic.

  26. #25
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    Wow that is good to know. Now that Starline is selling it that will make it easier to get. Good to go know.

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    Starline emailed me early in the week that they were shipping 7.65 Long brass.. Huey had no exclusivity in this deal.

    Note to self: If you convince Starline to produce a certain brass (say 7.62x45) by purchasing 100,000 pieces, insist on being exclusive source for say six to twelve months!
    This post contains the Amish virus. Since the Amish have no electricity or computers, you are on the honor system. Please delete all your files. Thank you

  28. #27
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    Self:
    if thatís the way you want to do it then fine...I do not believe Starline would produce any on those terms.
    i am very happy with what they agreed to do. Iím keeping the vast majority of them for myself and have the satisfaction of having helped french pistol and smg collectors with a way to get a proper case.

  29. #28
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    You're a good man, Charlie Brown. You're altruism is appreciated by the community.
    This post contains the Amish virus. Since the Amish have no electricity or computers, you are on the honor system. Please delete all your files. Thank you

  30. #29
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    I know that hughlong's may be a bit more but I sure don't mind supporting members who help get these kind of things back into production. I know he had to spend his time and effort to get it done. I am also sure I will buy some more from Starline to make sure I have plenty.

    thanks again hughlong
    Rico, we'll need special tactical equipment.

  31. #30
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    It's nice to have 7.65 proper brass. Been using the buffalo arms stuff for some time. Down to about 4 cartridges that lack proper, unformed brass. Thinking back around 2001 or so, I think I had close to twenty that required forming or reloading berdan cases, ect. Sure are the best of times for milsurp reloaders!
    Need help fixing a coleman camping appliance? Maybe I can help!

  32. #31
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    Would any of the currently produced Dillon conversion kits work with 7.65 long?

  33. #32

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    I'm interested in a Dillon kit as well.

    I typically use Sierra's #8005 projectile. When I first started reloading you could get boxes for $13 at cheaper than dirt of all places. But they quickly ran out and the prices have only gone up. I see it now for about $20/box at the low end.

    So I found some .309 cast bullets with the right weight. They aren't as pointy as factory but otherwise are close. I shot a few of these successfully this weekend out of a MAS-38. I only got a chrono reading for one shot, 1098. I downloaded it to 3.5gr N340 "just in case". My only concern is neck tension. If I really push crazy hard on the case the OAL will shrink by a few thousands but it could be the cast bullet itself. It's definitely not falling into the case or anything. I'm going to try again with a magazine of them and verify velocity is consistent.




    And here's a bag of the new brass. I haven't tried it yet.


  34. #33
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    For those of you looking for dies, I have been the one selling the custom Lee dies for the last 2 years. My last set sold today, but I will be having another batch made. If you are looking for the dies and don't want to pay the $200+ for non-carbide CH4D, either wait for me to have them available, or email me and I'll take a pre-order.

  35. #34

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    Has anyone chronographed factory ammo that can share results?

    I'm aware of the wartime steel milsurp ammo, post war brass milsurp ammo, and the postwar commercial ammo. I have a box of 25 of the latter. It's unusual to find but I plan to chrono it.

    What I don't know is if that commercial ammo is loaded differently from the military surplus ammo though, and would like to see what numbers people are seeing.

  36. #35
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    Hi All, I just scored 96 rounds of original ammo. Would like to reload as well. If you need any info on the original ammo, let me know. Dan

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screenshot_2019-08-23 Original French 7 65 Long Ammo 96 Round Brick.jpg 
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    "Shoot straight you bastards! Don't make a mess of it!"

    Lt. Harry "Breaker" Morant, February 27, 1902, Pretoria, South Africa.

  37. #36
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    I have read that original ammo clocked at 1100 fps.
    "Shoot straight you bastards! Don't make a mess of it!"

    Lt. Harry "Breaker" Morant, February 27, 1902, Pretoria, South Africa.

  38. #37
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    A few months back, I bought a grab-bag of 41 post-war 7.65 Long steel rounds on GunBroker, and used a digital blade micrometer to measure various diameters and a dial caliper to measure lengths. I was fine-tuning my ganged lathe bits to cut .32 S&W Long bases to the proper 7.65 Long geometry, and trying to verify the projectile diameters, weights, etc.
    I used the C.I.P. diagram for the naming convention of the dimensions, and a French "Ministere de la Guerre" specification for the toleranced dimensions. The C.I.P. diagram had moved from the last time I looked, it is here for now: https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/td...-en-page13.pdf

    The head stamps in the lot I bought are:
    ATS 1946
    ATS 1947
    ATS 1948
    VE 1946
    VE FY 1 50

    Selected dimensions from the "Ministere de la Guerre" / "Direction Generale de l'Armament (DGA)" specification for steel ammunition, dated 1946:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is the setup I used to make these measurements as accurately as I could:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I took 3 diameter measurements roughly 120 degrees apart, and plotted all three measurements for each round examined:
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	3482721
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ID:	3482735
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    Here are some observations when I pulled a few bullets:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The specification document mentioned earlier gave the steel projectile weight as 5.55 +/- 0.10 grams or 85.65 +/- 1.54 gn.

    I attempted to shoot some of these antique rounds (ones I did not pull apart) in a 1935A and found them extremely consistent at 0 ft/s. Even with multiple hits and decent indentations on the primers, none of them went bang.

    My machining of .32 S&W Long brass into 7.65x20 Long turned out like this:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is the progression from .32 S&W Long while I was still cutting the rim down separately prior to grinding the ganged tool above that did it all in one go.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Any comments or questions are welcome.

  39. #38
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    interesting, I ordered 500 cases from him, for $220.

  40. #39
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    NoTimeLikeNow,
    If you would like the official dimensioned technical drawing for the 7,65 mm Longue PM me with your email address and I will send you the official French specifications.
    The Wizard
    Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable
    Necat Omnes! Deus Suos Agnoscet.
    The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

  41. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard View Post
    NoTimeLikeNow,
    If you would like the official dimensioned technical drawing for the 7,65 mm Longue PM me with your email address and I will send you the official French specifications.

    Wizard,

    Thanks, I have just stepped into the light and started posting; lurking silently got old. Unfortunately, I have not built up the requisite number of posts to enable PM privileges, so I will have to babble a couple more times before I can send you my e-mail address.

    Looking forward to seeing your 7.65 Longue data, but in the meantime, did you see any differences in your material and the specifications in the first table I posted above? I don't have any brass rounds in hand, so I didn't mention that I have a similar table for those sizes, which for the most part are similar, though not exactly the same.

  42. #41
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    Here is a link to the CIP specs - https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/td...-en-page13.pdf

  43. #42
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    Wow, NoTimeLikeNow! Are you an engineer? That's some serious data crunching you did there! I have to meet you some day! :-D
    "Shoot straight you bastards! Don't make a mess of it!"

    Lt. Harry "Breaker" Morant, February 27, 1902, Pretoria, South Africa.

  44. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudufoot View Post
    Wow, NoTimeLikeNow! Are you an engineer? That's some serious data crunching you did there! I have to meet you some day! :-D
    Guilty. I live on the northwest corner of town, and work in the energy corridor. PM me if you are interested in grabbing lunch or a beer and talking guns sometime.

    Cheers.

  45. #44
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    Bonjour ŗ tous,

    Using Starline's new 32 Long brass, I loaded some ammo with Hornady 30 Caliber .309 Bullets, 90 Grains XTP (31000). Following suggestions from Youtube, I started out with 4.8 grains of Blue Dot. This combination often failed to eject properly. After bumping up the charge to 5.8 grains of Blue Dot my 35A pistol functions perfectly and the accuracy is better. This charge of powder may be too hot for some pistols but it seems to work fine in my pistol which appears to be in excellent plus condition.

    My only gripe is the cost of the bullets (.20), + brass (.20). I might like to use cast bullets to bring the price down. I have an older luber-sizer with dies for .309, .311, .313 and .314. What luck have you had with cast lead in this round?

  46. #45
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    I haven't pushed Blue Dot past 5.0 gn in my 1935A with that projectile, as it was showing some case head expansion in machined .32 S&W Long brass, but only making about 975 ft/s. The 4.8 gn gave around 920 ft/s, but cycled fine. Is your once fired brass able to chamber, or has it stretched enough to need sizing down to go in the pipe?

    I have sized some jacketed bullets with a Lee sizer die, like Hornady's 85 gn 0.312" down to 0.309", with no strong effect on velocity with Blue Dot; but with pretty high deviations, it is hard to say there is no impact in going from 0.312" to 0.309". I haven't got casting equipment to make my own, and buying small quantities of particular mold designs that have been mentioned in print and online seems to costs about as much as jacketed.

    Is the 5.8 gn of Blue Dot, Hornady 90 gn XTP, and the new Starline brass the best recipe you have so far?

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