Dating Izhevsk Stocks: A Guide
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Thread: Dating Izhevsk Stocks: A Guide

  1. #1
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    Default Dating Izhevsk Stocks: A Guide

    This question keeps coming up, so I am posting this in a separate thread. Below is my most up to date research on dating Izhevsk rifle and carbine stocks. This is all from memory, so hopefully I haven't forgotten anything or made any dumb mistakes.

    Stock inspection: All stocks were stamped with an acceptance stamp in the form of two letters in a circle (likely the initials of the GAU representative responsible for inspecting and accepting the rifles for service or someone equally important). These inspectors came and went over the years.

    1920s: Not enough examples, stock roundel is a very large Soviet crest
    1930-1935: Not enough examples, ФЛ observed on some stocks
    1936-1938: ГВ
    1939: ГВ (early), MA/MК? (mid), АМ (late)
    1940: АМ (early), ГЛ (??), ПП (mid/late)
    1941: ПП, БФ (very late)
    1942: АП
    1943: АП (early/mid), ОГ (mid/late), ИЛ? (very late?)
    1944: ИЛ
    1945: ИЛ? (very early?), ОГ (mid/late)
    1946: ОГ**
    1947-1948: ОЦ**
    ** I don't care about post-war stuff, so this may or may not be 100% correct.

    Note: A small inspection on the left side of the barrel will match the stock inspection until mid 1943 when the barrel inspection was dropped.

    In 1945, an additional inspection was added to the stock next to the sling slot. Its a large diamond with "NЕС1" (many other numbers are seen). This stamp is found on all stocks from 1945 until the end of production, so we can distinguish early/mid 1945 stock with no liners and ОГ inspection from a 1943 stock. The 'N' is not a Cyrillic letter, so it is likely an abbreviated "№". The "EC" is apparently some sort of quality control group at No.74, so "NEC1" is the acceptance stamp of "EC" inspector No.1.

    Roundels: The РСФСР roundel was used from sometime in the late 20s or early 30s until mid-1937 when it was replaced with the CCCP roundel. Original stocks from the 1920s have a very large Soviet crest stamped on them. I have only ever observed two such examples (dated 1926).

    Escutcheons: Front/Rear screwed until 1941, half liner front/rear screwed for a short period in late 1941, half liner front/rear none 1942-1944. M44 received full escutcheons in late 1945. Snipers received front/rear half liners from 1942 or 1943 though early 1944 (occasionally seen on regular rifles also). Full escutcheons front/rear on snipers from mid-1944 until end of production.

    Barrel Band Notch: Introduced in 1939 or 1940 but deleted in late 1941. The notches are short and round and slightly larger than cutouts found on Tula stocks. The large oblong notches are post-war.

    Important Note: These inspections apply to M38/M44 carbines, but they do not apply to Factory No.74 SVT38/40.

    1939: ?
    1940: TC
    1941: ТС (early/mid), БФ (mid/late)

    Data on this is incomplete. Unsanded matching Izhevsk SVT38/40s are very tough to find, and when found are usually SVT40s from 1941.
    Last edited by RyanE; 06-07-2018 at 07:36 PM.

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    Very useful post, would be a good sticky.






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    Great work Ryan. Looks good. Here are some pictures to show what these acceptance stamps look like. It would be good if people posted pictures until we have all examples.
    1936
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	36 Izhesvk (2).jpg 
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ID:	961435
    1936
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Name:	PE (4).jpg 
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ID:	961436
    1938
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Name:	38 Izhesvk (5).jpg 
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ID:	961433
    1942
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Name:	42 Izhevsk 2 (6).jpg 
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ID:	961443
    1942
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	42 Izhevsk (17).jpg 
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ID:	961432
    1943
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	43 Izhesvk 1 (8).jpg 
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ID:	961430

    1944

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1944 Izhevsk (8).jpg 
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ID:	961431
    Last edited by msniper19; 12-02-2015 at 11:16 PM.

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    ПП ('41)



    АП ('42)







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    Excellent information. Thank you for posting this.

    I would add that I have a 91/30 with "screwed front/no liner rear" slots. I suspect it was a matter of using up work-in-process at the time, which, considering production rates, could have been thousands.

    I also have 2 M38 carbines (M38 stocks) with rear partial liners.

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    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...in-sling-holes

    I like the odd ones. Here's an m38 stock with double half liners that I picked up a while ago. This little variation doesnt seem to pop up often.

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    Ryan E, Thank you very much for this very interesting information. Also do you think it would be possible for a 42 Tula to have left the factory wearing a 41 Ishvesk stock?

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    Quote Originally Posted by racerguy00 View Post
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...in-sling-holes

    I like the odd ones. Here's an m38 stock with double half liners that I picked up a while ago. This little variation doesnt seem to pop up often.
    I own a '43 ex-PU that has half-liner front/screwed escutcheons rear. Not sure I've seen another like that.






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    Quote Originally Posted by Montana Bearbait View Post
    Also do you think it would be possible for a 42 Tula to have left the factory wearing a 41 Ishvesk stock?
    Doubtful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Very useful post, would be a good sticky.
    +100 ^^^^^^^^


    Thanks for the very useful post Ryan.
    "The only real power comes out of a long rifle."- Joseph Stalin

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    Very useful and informative; well done Sir!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
    Snipers received front/rear half liners from 1942
    All Izhevsk PEM's (including Zaitsev rifle) that I was able to detect at wartime photos (at least 5 rifles), have no half liner at the rear. Maybe it was was added only to PU stocks

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    Excellent info & Pictures, Ryan and everyone else... Very Useful

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    Thanks to Ryan and all who contributed. Good thread!
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    A valuable bit of information for collectors! Thanks RyanE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratnik View Post
    All Izhevsk PEM's (including Zaitsev rifle) that I was able to detect at wartime photos (at least 5 rifles), have no half liner at the rear. Maybe it was was added only to PU stocks
    Is it possible they started using the rear half liner on snipers only in 1943 and later and even PUs had no rear liner during '42?






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    Lots of time and research go into the production of such excellent data. Thank you for the effort, RyanE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Is it possible they started using the rear half liner on snipers only in 1943 and later and even PUs had no rear liner during '42?
    Its possible. Sniper production in 1942 was very low and original examples are almost nonexistent.

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    Bravo!
    Now thinning my collection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    Great work Ryan. Looks good. Here are some pictures to show what these acceptance stamps look like. It would be good if people posted pictures until we have all examples.
    1936
    ...
    1936
    ...
    1938
    ...
    1942
    ...
    1942
    ...
    1943
    ...

    1944

    ...
    You've got one of mine in there (the first '36), but here are the others to help round out the pictures of the different dates:

    1940
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1024rs.jpg 
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ID:	961902


    1943 (earlier? a very rough rifle)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1040rs.jpg 
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ID:	961905

    1943 (later? still rough, but finished much nicer)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1048rs.jpg 
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ID:	961900


    1944
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1019rs.jpg 
Views:	45 
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ID:	961904


    1945 (an M44, not M91/30 like the others)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1038rs.jpg 
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ID:	961901

    Also attached is a picture of the stamps on the right side of a 1933 Tula buttstock and the barrel inspection marking of the rougher 1943 Izhevsk M91/30.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC_1032rs.jpg  

    DSC_1079rs.jpg  


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    I guess it might also help to post the barrel inspector markings of my Izhevsk rifles that have them. The rougher of the two 1943's is in my post above.


    1936
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1122rs.jpg 
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ID:	961920


    1940
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1033rs.jpg 
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ID:	961919


    1943
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1053rs.jpg 
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ID:	961921


    The 1944 M91/30 and the 1945 M44 lack them.

    Also, here's the barrel shank markings on my 1933 Tula.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1071rs.jpg 
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ID:	961916Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1026rs.jpg 
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ID:	961917Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1084rs.jpg 
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Size:	140.1 KB 
ID:	961918

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmlnaaa View Post

    1943 (earlier? a very rough rifle)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1040rs.jpg 
Views:	68 
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ID:	961905

    1943 (later? still rough, but finished much nicer)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1048rs.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	192.9 KB 
ID:	961900




    1945 (an M44, not M91/30 like the others)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1038rs.jpg 
Views:	67 
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ID:	961901
    What letter blocks are these three rifles? Does the first 1943 have any acceptance on the left side of the barrel?

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    I did forget two important notes:

    1) These inspections apply to M38/M44 carbines, but they do not apply to Factory No.74 SVT38/40.
    1939: ?
    1940: ?
    1941: ТС (early/mid), БФ (mid/late)
    Data on this is incomplete. Unsanded matching Izhevsk SVT38/40s are very tough to find, and when found are usually SVT40s from 1941.

    2) In 1945, an additional inspection was added to the stock. Its a large diamond with what I think is "жЕС1" (not sure of first letter, other numbers may be possible). This stamp is found on all stocks from 1945 until the end of production, so we know that the stock pictured below is from early/mid 1945 (no liners, ОГ inspection) and not 1943.

    Quote Originally Posted by shmlnaaa View Post

    1945 (an M44, not M91/30 like the others)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1038rs.jpg 
Views:	67 
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ID:	961901

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    Here's the top of the barrels of those three. TE is the earlier 1943, 3M the later.

    There looks like there's probably an inspector's mark on the front top of the 3M's barrel shank next to the hammer and cycle, and the inspector's marking on the barrel of the TE is in the usual place.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC_1053rs.jpg  

    DSC_1048rs.jpg  

    DSC_1050rs.jpg  

    DSC_1079rs.jpg  

    DSC_1047rs.jpg  


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    For reference (serial numbers and such), here's the tops of the barrels of the other rifles I've posted in this thread which I haven't posted the tops of the barrel shanks of yet. Also, the attached are the serial numbers on the buttplates of all of the rifles I've posted in this thread as some proof that the stocks are the originals to the rifles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1038rs.jpg 
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ID:	961947Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1118rs.jpg 
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Size:	156.0 KB 
ID:	961949Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1031rs.jpg 
Views:	28 
Size:	185.0 KB 
ID:	961948

    To help alleviate confusion, what rifles I've posted in this thread are a 1933 Tula M91/30, a 1936 Izhevsk M91/30, a 1940 M38, two different 1943 Izhevsk M91/30's, a 1944 Izhevsk M91/30, and a 1945 Izhevsk M44.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC_1115rs.jpg  

    DSC_1076rs.jpg  

    DSC_1036rs.jpg  

    DSC_1081rs.jpg  

    DSC_1042rs.jpg  

    DSC_1047rs.jpg  

    DSC_1057rs.jpg  


  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post

    2) In 1945, an additional inspection was added to the stock. Its a large diamond with what I think is "жЕС1" (not sure of first letter, other numbers may be possible). This stamp is found on all stocks from 1945 until the end of production, so we know that the stock pictured below is from early/mid 1945 (no liners, ОГ inspection) and not 1943.
    Here are the diamond proofs from two 1946 M44s. The proofs on my '47 and '45 non-refurb M44s aren't legible:




    They read "NEC4" and "NEC7" respectively. Not sure why there's an "N" rather than "H" or "И" on a Russian stock, though?






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    Oh, also this is the pattern of bayonet lug that the 1945 M44 has. This varied in 1945, so I think it might be also useful as reference for me to post it.

    Edit: And I don't have a much better close up on the diamond marking on my 1945 M44, but it has NEC7 in it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC_1095rs.jpg  

    DSC_1041c.jpg  


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    Good thread with a lot of helpful information. Thanks.

    However, if I wanted to date an Izhevsk stock, I would try the flowers and candy approach.
    Aut Pax Aut Bellum

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    For all of you who contributed to this thread, thank you for the valuable collector info. One of the many reasons this is the best site on the web for sick 'Mosinitis' people like me! Annnnd, this should definitely be a sticky if possible.

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    I also have an oil finished '43 Izhevsk 91/30 I will post pics of up tomorrow. Has a few different characteristics than your typical shellac finished '43 Izhevsk. Makes me lend credence to the idea that the shellac finished rifles were actually unissued during the war prior to their shellacing during arsenal storage post war.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Very useful post, would be a good sticky.
    Even if it does not get made a sticky, at the very least a survey thread should be started on the subject on the survey board.
    King Eight Eggs

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    Updated. I've been meaning to do this for awhile, but just never got around to it.

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    ЖП series '39 Izhevsk. MK on this example:






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    I have an ex-Ejército Popular Spanish Civil War Izhevsk 1933-dated 1891/30, barrel and buttplate/stock serial numbers matching, that has the (пп) marking and the hammer-and-sickle CCCP cartouche/emblem.

    Also the same on a refurbished 1927-date Izhevsk 1891/30 so-called "ex-dragoon" that was imported more recently... Obviously a replacement stock. Not so the ex-SCW.
    Alle Kunst ist umsonst, Wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveccarlson View Post
    I have an ex-Ejército Popular Spanish Civil War Izhevsk 1933-dated 1891/30, barrel and buttplate/stock serial numbers matching, that has the (пп) marking and the hammer-and-sickle CCCP cartouche/emblem.
    The CCCP roundel was not in use until 1937, so someone replaced the stock with a nicer 1940/1941 stock, probably from a Finnish import, after its arrival in the US.

    Check to see if the left side of the barrel has the acceptance with Cyrillic initials.

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    Apologies. "My bad..."

    The roundel/cartouche has the hammer-and-sickle, and I can see the letter "C" but I assumed it was CCCP I guess. I suppose it could be an RSFSR mark. Similarly, I can see a round stamp with at least one "п" but I'm not sure about the other letter since the marks are very faint.
    I looked for my magnifying glass, but I must have taken it into work. I can't see the metal marks on the left side of the barrel unaided. I'll double-check when I get the chance.

    The stock is original to the rifle. It has SCW-style wire sling hangers, and the whole rifle was slathered in cosmoline/ "cannon grease" when I got it. Also the butt plate number matches the barrel serial number, and there is enough crud/patina/etc. around the inlet for the butt plate and the screws that I do not think it was removed and added to a later stock.

    Again, apologies for mistakes on the interpretation. Hopefully I'll be able to see them up close soon.
    Alle Kunst ist umsonst, Wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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    OK. So the cyrillic letters on the 1933 are much more blocky and angular, but it looks to me like both the left side of the receiver and a very faint mark on the right side of the butt stock are (ЛФ) except they are so blocky they almost look like some kind of kanji!

    Actually, I think it might be the reverse order... I think I was looking at it upside down... "F then L" or ФЛ...

    The 1937 is much, much easier to identify:
    В) So "ge" "Ve"...

    You guys have really good powers of observation!
    Last edited by daveccarlson; 06-14-2018 at 07:07 PM. Reason: 1937 data added
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    1940 Izhevsk Finn capture, non-refurbished 91/30 with (MA) stamp. The rifle is original matching with the original stock. ЖT Prefix on the rifle. Thank you for this guide on Izhevsk stocks!
    Last edited by deoxys987; 02-23-2020 at 12:24 PM.

    Mosin Nagant's/C&R Guns I own:
    1934 Sako M28/30
    1939 Erma RC Mauser 98k
    1940 Izhevsk 91/30 Finn Capture/Original Matching
    1943 Izhevsk 91/30 PU Sniper
    1957 Tula SKS
    1966 Polish AKM (Kit built)
    1968 "late date" Finnish M39

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