Amberg Arsenal (Bavaria) rifle
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Thread: Amberg Arsenal (Bavaria) rifle

  1. #1
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    Default Amberg Arsenal (Bavaria) rifle

    Here is the final installment for today.

    Another candidate for a chamber cast. I will suppose some type of 8mm, possibly 8x57J. All the numbers match. I was suprised at the noticable lack of marks under the wood.....just a guess made prior to 1912 based on proofs???????????

    Any opinions or added details appreciated.
















  2. #2
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    Quite a scarce rifle, but I don't see why pre-1912? What proofs? (proofs as in the Bavarian fireproof? Or are there commercial proofs you don't show?)
    This rifle, imo, was made in 1919 from Gewehr98 parts/receivers on hand at the Bavarian arsenal at Amberg, Dr. Storz book would be a great asset for you understanding Amberg in this period. He doesn't (as I recall) discuss this particular product but does speak on the end of the war, and the situation at Amberg in particular..

    Before 1918 Amberg would not have done such work imo, they were a state arsenal and all the similar products such as this attributable to previous state arsenals- both Danzig & Erfurt have such types- these were done immediately post war to keep employees on the payrolls and make some product.
    These were a short term project and the IMKK ended all the State Arsenals quite quickly.. interestingly Danzig products seem the most common (or most successful?) This is only like the 3rd I have seen from Amberg and it is a little different, as I don't recall that texturing on the others.

    A very interesting rifle though I can't suggest a value, as I have never seen one sell! Probably not cheap if you can find someone who collects them.

    Oh, this is the lowest one I have seen in serial. – and the other two were rigged for a mount on the receiver, not textured like this, one serial was in the mid-700’s and was discussed here on gunboards a year or two ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by texraid View Post
    Here is the final installment for today.

    Another candidate for a chamber cast. I will suppose some type of 8mm, possibly 8x57J. All the numbers match. I was suprised at the noticable lack of marks under the wood.....just a guess made prior to 1912 based on proofs???????????

    Any opinions or added details appreciated.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Quite a scarce rifle, but I don't see why pre-1912? What proofs? (proofs as in the Bavarian fireproof? Or are there commercial proofs you don't show?)
    This rifle, imo, was made in 1919 from Gewehr98 parts/receivers on hand at the Bavarian arsenal at Amberg, Dr. Storz book would be a great asset for you understanding Amberg in this period. He doesn't (as I recall) discuss this particular product but does speak on the end of the war, and the situation at Amberg in particular..

    Before 1918 Amberg would not have done such work imo, they were a state arsenal and all the similar products such as this attributable to previous state arsenals- both Danzig & Erfurt have such types- these were done immediately post war to keep employees on the payrolls and make some product.
    These were a short term project and the IMKK ended all the State Arsenals quite quickly.. interestingly Danzig products seem the most common (or most successful?) This is only like the 3rd I have seen from Amberg and it is a little different, as I don't recall that texturing on the others.

    A very interesting rifle though I can't suggest a value, as I have never seen one sell! Probably not cheap if you can find someone who collects them.

    Oh, this is the lowest one I have seen in serial. – and the other two were rigged for a mount on the receiver, not textured like this, one serial was in the mid-700’s and was discussed here on gunboards a year or two ago.

    I appreciate the info, and thanks for the tip on the book. I'm a little lacking on the pictures of the barrel underside......mainly because there are no proofs other than the serial number and I am more familiar with commercial proofs and not knowing a lot about the arsenal proofs based it on commercial. Hence the speculation on the date.

    I have never seen one and had a gut feeling about it...or you could say it spoke to me. FWIW $690 OTD at auction.
    Last edited by texraid; 05-03-2008 at 09:07 PM.

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  5. #4
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    Default

    Thank you very much for sharing the pics! As I said before and will say again now...a beautiful rifle!

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    Default had a cornbush and sons

    the gun was very simular except "cheek peice" 0xx ser num, slight engraving 98 action not 96, but no 3rd locking lug. brought back during ww 1 or after by a farmer son, got it from a grandchild, 8 by 57 reg shot like a target gun at 100 yrds kicked like a magum do to small butt plate/ lightnress 5 lbs. no ware, no miltary hardware bavarian proofs.:" no stock front drift pin "wood was light like balsa wood, close grain fancy? but i sold it for $ 675:, 12 years ago, i read once that some 98 that were first made didnt have third locking lug? and were sent to england before war and cogswell and? made sporters out of them, but info is vague and memory has failed, but it was the best balenced gun at mid mag ive ever owned , i didnt realize it was 26 in until put in gun safe:D, chased it four gun shows. had no reason to sale it? cornbush sons overspree? your is very nice too<>< school teacher

  7. #6
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    Default Commercial Conversion Amberg Gew98

    What you have is a 1920s Commercial Conversion, using an original Gew98 which happened to be made by Amberg (Amberg Lion Firing proof, which is Military)...somewhere there should be the Civilian proof house marks on the barrel.
    The stock date of 1924 would confirm this conversion.
    Since the calibre of 7,9x57 was further banned from Civilian use in the Post-WW I era, the chamber was probably recut for 8x60S ( commercial designation of a "lengthened" 7,9 case and shoulder to a 60mm case length ( somehow, a 7,9x57 cartridge will still chamber, but the headspace is a bit "generous"...and it will still fire as well (if the case is properly gripped by the extractor)).
    8x60 is the maximum cartridge that will feed and can be loaded into the magazine without having to cut relief cuts in the receiver ring or lengthen the magazine box of a M98 action.
    The stock is a typical "hunting " stock, of the type also made before WW I for Haenel M88 sporters ( large slab on left side and right side of stock, as in early percussion Hunting rifles,
    where the slab of flat wood served for the inletting of the Lock plate and retaining plates for same.

    Given the stock design, I would say the conversion was done in the Suhl-Thuringia area, famous for commercial guns (New and Military conversions.).

    Have the chamber checked...unless the rifle was converted for the African, South American or US market, where there were no problems with 7,9x57 cartridges, otherwise for sale in Germany it would have been also rechambered to 8x60S, or even 8x63 Brenneke or other German "Wildcat" cartridge, to comply with the Military Cartridge Prohibition.
    A chamber cast is the simplest way.

    BTW, further indication of "commercial" rework is the trigger guard looks very Kar98a rather than stock Gew98...And of course the Butterknife bolt lever screams "Commercial Gunsmith".

    Regards,
    Doc AV
    AV Ballistics.

  8. #7
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    What makes this one unique is it is chambered for 8x57 and was actually made at Amberg (note the Amberg Arsenal stamp on the stock), which will not be found on a conversion. There is no date on the stock and the only mark, other than the Amberg mark, is the matching serial number. It has only the military firing proof and no commercial proofs whatsoever. Had it been earmarked for export it would have been marked "Germany" AFAIK. Amberg made a very few rifles commercially shortly after WWI prior to being shut down. All of the few I have seen with the Amberg stamp had this identical butterknife bolt with the turned up end.
    Last edited by texraid; 07-05-2008 at 10:42 PM.

  9. #8
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    Default Danzig civilian Mauser

    Dear SimsonSuhl,

    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Before 1918 Amberg would not have done such work imo, they were a state arsenal and all the similar products such as this attributable to previous state arsenals- both Danzig & Erfurt have such types- these were done immediately post war to keep employees on the payrolls and make some product.
    These were a short term project and the IMKK ended all the State Arsenals quite quickly.. interestingly Danzig products seem the most common (or most successful?).
    Here is firstly the picture of one (quite elegant, IMO) civilian Mod. 98 hunting rifle from Danzig for comparison and enjoyment, see appendix.
    And here is secondly a crosslink to a pertinent thread within this Forum:
    https://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...ghlight=danzig

    Carcano
    Last edited by Carcano; 09-28-2008 at 01:43 PM.

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    Default Bedtime

    I waned to put this tread to bed rather than just letting it die. I do again thank those that participated as well as lamenting all the interesting finds that weren't posted. Seems a loss to all of us who enjoy seeing nice guns with a short 'find' description.

  11. #10
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    Just restoring an rare "Gewehrfabrik (riflefactory ) Amberg 98 sporter.....
    The riflefactory made between nov. 1918 till end of 1919 very few sporter or Pirschbüchsen for the civilian market, just to keep the employes in work. Also there excisting very few from riflefactory Danzig and Erfurt.
    Stock is the prewar type with large sideplates, stamped with Amberg logo, also the right side of the system is marked with Gew.F Amberg. Chambered for 8x57 Is ,almost all parts are modified from military parts,trigger is the french type . No civilian proof marks, only the military proofstamp- bavarian lion.
    Mounted with an suhler einhak , not known by now if this was made in fabric or later. Scope is an Goerz 3x sniper type with an other rifle sn. Mounting is similar to the bavarian sniper rifles before 1918.
    Highest SN from Amberg i know is 9xx.
















    http://jagdwaffensammler.de/
    Last edited by chapmen; 08-18-2012 at 10:42 AM.

  12. #11
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  13. #12
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    ...mine had 26 inch barrel yours?
    ....no front recoil lug through forearm....grip cap / butt plate...bone, a little engraving everything else as you guys...should not have sold it....
    Last edited by DK PHILLIPS; 08-18-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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    the single set trigger (alka known as french set trigger) must have been popular - I have a similar era 98 rifle that is almost same as yours but stock has a pancake cheekpiece and where Mod 98 appears on yours mine has no marking (scrubbed clean) same mortise and tenon system locking the barrel to stock, no recoil lug in stock channel, same sling attachment soldered to stepped barrel same single set trigger and same side panels and same pattern checkering, same thinned down trigger guard - thats a lot of 'sames' - but mine has been re-barrelled and the action has no markings as to maker and has BNP marking (Brit Nitro proof -so its been to England at least once in its travels) and slightly different butter knife bolt handle

    some time ago I also had one in 9x57 with double set triggers

    they make great liteweight hunting rifles

    do you think yours is made up from 'converted' WW1 sniper action and barrel




    Quote Originally Posted by chapmen View Post





  15. #14
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    Amberg was an state factory and dont produced any civilian rifles before nov. 1918. To have work for the employes they reworked military rifles after this date and also thought about an product for the civilian market to keep the factory alive. So very few Pirschbüchsen were made before closing the factory in end of 1919. To document the civilian status of these rifles they were marked on the stock with the factory logo, also the system was signed. At this time it was forbidden to hold military weapons in private, so this rifles where clearly not military rifles.
    Allmost all parts are modified military parts and stamped with ordnance signs. The single stage trigger is maybe made by an specialized firm, as usuable in the the civilian rifles. It is an little bit unusual for bolt action , the typic trigger for bolt actions was the double one. Also an special sn range was used , lowest i know is 3xx, highest 9xx. These rifles were also made in the state factorys Danzig and Erfurt, also in very little quantity. These rifles cannot be compared with civilian made sporters of any kind. Buttplate is steel, recoil steel piece inside forearm. Its not an converted sniper, only new leftover parts was used for this guns. Barrel is an overworked Gewehr 98 type in the original 8x57 IS chambering.(This rifles made before treaty of versaille !!!) 8x57 Is is the only chambering of these rifles in origin. There were no extras with these rifles, only one type, one caliber, one stock, no engraving etc. ! The bavarian snipers had also the same mounting frontplate , the rear one was different and used a little lever to lock the mount.

  16. #15
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    Chapmen,
    Thanks for the post and the additional information, very much appreciated. My rifle is identical to yours (without the scope mounts). No need for the xxx's in the serials. You now have a new low serial number to add to your list. Mine is 161
    Last edited by texraid; 10-14-2012 at 10:06 PM.

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