P 14 rifle
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Thread: P 14 rifle

  1. #1
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    Default P 14 rifle

    This was for sale a couple of days ago, went pretty quick. Winchester made with fine adjustment rear sight, D^D marked and what I guess are holes from scope mounts. Sadly very sported in 303-25 but still interesting. Rear sight alone would be worth a few dollars I would imagine.
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  2. #2
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    and your point is? Unfortunately Bubba had a party on this one

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRA View Post
    and your point is? Unfortunately Bubba had a party on this one
    I think the point is (although Aussie A can speak for himself) Pattern 1914 MkI* W (F) rifles are uncommon in any form (I believe most were later converted to Mk1* W (T) rifles). I have seen/handled scores of P14s and I have not seen one in the flesh.
    Thanks for posting - it is indeed a shame that it has been chopped about.

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    Aussie Anthony: Are you thinking this was an original Mk I* (T) sniper rifle? The holes on the bridge and the notch on the left wing of the sight protector look like what I see on my Mk I* (T). There also appears to be a serial # (or something) on the right side of the sight protector. An original would also, of course, had the fine adjustment sight as well as being a Winchester.

    Ruprecht

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    Requesting pictures of the barrel if you have any? and the 325-25 is the .303 necked down to .257?
    Collectors can't spend too much....only buy too early!

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondragon View Post
    Requesting pictures of the barrel if you have any? and the 325-25 is the .303 necked down to .257?
    303-25 is indeed a necked down 303 case. They were fairly common before my time, a lot were used for kangaroo shooting. My father still has his from use in the 1960's, still use it with 87 gr. projectiles.
    Sorry no pictures of the barrel as I just took the pictures from a gun sales website.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruprecht View Post
    Aussie Anthony: Are you thinking this was an original Mk I* (T) sniper rifle? The holes on the bridge and the notch on the left wing of the sight protector look like what I see on my Mk I* (T). There also appears to be a serial # (or something) on the right side of the sight protector. An original would also, of course, had the fine adjustment sight as well as being a Winchester.

    Ruprecht
    Ruprecht, I was indeed thinking along those lines. Having never handled genuine T version I am not sure if this is actually one of those, but I am sure someone will confirm or say otherwise. I just thought it was interesting and for $300 it could have been a good project that would probably take a long time to complete! The D^D and number on the sight protector should give some clues to its origins, I would think? Or maybe I am way off??

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Anthony View Post
    303-25 is indeed a necked down 303 case. They were fairly common before my time, a lot were used for kangaroo shooting. My father still has his from use in the 1960's, still use it with 87 gr. projectiles.
    Sorry no pictures of the barrel as I just took the pictures from a gun sales website.
    Thats right, the 303-25 was a way around the no military calibre laws that were around for a time back then

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  10. #9
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    With a repaired stock or a full stock, a.303 W Barrel, and the Proper scope mounts (still findable) it can be rebuilt into an Aussie Issue P14 Sniper from WW II. OK, so an original AOC scope may be difficult to find (as is the Patt 18 Aldis),

    I have a similar "stripped" sniper, still in .303, full stock, and I found a set of P14 Bases to fit...one of my "GunnaDoo" jobs.

    DocAV

  11. #10
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    The serial number was applied to the sight protector because the front scope vase obscured the receiver serial number. Along with the D/\D mark would make it a No3T that came to Aus between the wars... There were 2001 of the rifles made, best source says "a few hundred" were sent here and would have got the Dad and Dave.
    The machined part on the receiver looks about right.

    Will stick pics up tomorrow
    .....if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but enough people call it a chicken, then it will be a chicken!

    think about it...

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
    The serial number was applied to the sight protector because the front scope vase obscured the receiver serial number. Along with the D/\D mark would make it a No3T that came to Aus between the wars... There were 2001 of the rifles made, best source says "a few hundred" were sent here and would have got the Dad and Dave.
    The machined part on the receiver looks about right.

    Will stick pics up tomorrow
    Thanks Son. Maybe I should have jumped on it, even if just for an interesting talking piece. As Doc said, bits may turn up one day..

  13. #12
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    These rifles arrived here as converted in 1918 with the PP Co Patt 1918 scopes fitted.
    They saw service with Aussie snipers from early on in WW2 and by the time the AOC scopes were being made for the Lithgow HT rifles, it is reasonable to believe some would have needed new optics fitted.
    From my own research, I believe a quantity from the early lots of AOC scopes were set aside to maintain the No3T rifles. Although I have not seen it, I understand there is at least one with an AOC scope still fitted, and I have seen an AOC scope that obviously came off a No3T- had never been fitted to a No1 rifle!

    Mine had a mismatched PP Co scope on it in very poor condition, and I managed to find another PP Co scope with rings in very good condition... so now have it on the rifle. The rifle is all original and all matching other than the scope.


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    .....if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but enough people call it a chicken, then it will be a chicken!

    think about it...

  14. #13
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    in action
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails a1 BOUGAINVILLE ISLAND. 1944-12-30. NX193912 PRIVATE T. HALL, 25TH INFANTRY BATTALION PICKING OF.jpg  


  15. #14

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    Very nice! These are fun to shoot, but unfamiliar with the 303-25 round.
    My Eddystone is 30-06 and is a beast at the range. Full pics of both sides?
    Not imported. Just a super lacquer thinner wash/scrub and what beautiful wood !
    The 1917's 30-06 can command some good profit on a sale of it.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
    These rifles arrived here as converted in 1918 with the PP Co Patt 1918 scopes fitted.
    They saw service with Aussie snipers from early on in WW2 and by the time the AOC scopes were being made for the Lithgow HT rifles, it is reasonable to believe some would have needed new optics fitted.
    From my own research, I believe a quantity from the early lots of AOC scopes were set aside to maintain the No3T rifles. Although I have not seen it, I understand there is at least one with an AOC scope still fitted, and I have seen an AOC scope that obviously came off a No3T- had never been fitted to a No1 rifle!

    Mine had a mismatched PP Co scope on it in very poor condition, and I managed to find another PP Co scope with rings in very good condition... so now have it on the rifle. The rifle is all original and all matching other than the scope.


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    Son, the markings on the left side of receiver, photo 1. Are they unique to sniper rifles only? Also, should the scope have the rifles serial number stamped, or is both the rifle and scope stamped with a new number? Thanks.

  17. #16
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    This once was an original No. 3 (T) sniper. Both the front and the scope base have been removed, as visible by the two holes on the receiver ring, plus the milling on the rear sight protector for the rear base.

    Original WWI No. 3 (T) snipers had the rifle serial marked on the right side of the rear sight protector, as already mentioned due to the front scope base covering the original serial number. The Irish contract from the 1930s had the serial number engraved, plus it had a much more "square" type front base and a BSA manufactured scope.

    Despite of the modifications done to this rifle, I think it is worth the rescue. Barrels can be bought, same applies to stocks (it appears to have had too much contact with sand paper and oil). Bases, scope and ring are hard to get, but the bases can be individually made to restore this rifle, or might somewhen turn up in a junk box.

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    YIKES!!!! I have an all original eddystone that puts that baby to shame! If anyone is interested I will post it! [email protected]

  19. #18
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    I am not sure if there is an ERA P.14 out there that can beat an even sportered sniper, but curious to see what you are talking about!

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    I am not sure if there is an ERA P.14 out there that can beat an even sportered sniper, but curious to see what you are talking about!
    Agreed, if it was original it would have made in the area of $7000 in Australia, not $300.

  21. #20
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    Hello all, new member to this site.
    I bought this action and im in the process of restoring it as it is and original sniper. I’ve got a nice Winchester marked stock for it, PP& co scope, a set of original bases. I have a set of rings that need repairs, but still looking for a good Winchester barrel.
    If anyone has a lead on a barrel please let me know also if I could get another set of rings it would save me a lot of trouble.
    Regards Poohbah

  22. #21
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    Canít help with the barrel, but sounds like you have a good start on the restoration. Well done, a few progress shots would be good to see. Cheers Anthony

  23. #22
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    An older thread, but can add some info on the P14(T)s in Australian service.

    Looking at the small arms returns to the Colonial Office, we had 668 in Australia by 1935, or just over one third of the complete production run.

    The general distribution of rifles into the Military Districts was 1/3 to 2MD (NSW), 1/3 to 3MD (Victoria) and 1/3 to the rest of the MDs (Qld, SA, WA and Tas). Only NSW marked the P14(T)s with a separate issue number, which was stamped as a prefix to the serial number on the RH rear sight protector, so something like:

    D/I\D
    2
    266.124384


    I took down some of the NSW issue numbers, but don't have access to them right now. They led me to believe that NSW got more than their usual 1/3 share.

    The Australian ownership D/I\ was also in the same spots as the post WW1 issue Brit made SMLEs, on the LHS of the receiver ring and over the butt marking disc.

    As for their use by Australia in WW2, they were the mainstay 2nd AIF sniper in North Africa and Middle East, and were used especially in Tobruk during the siege defence.

    Ian Skennerton mas made some excellent references to the P14(T) being used by Sparrow Force 2/2 Independent Company to harass the Japanese. The "Lion of Singapore" was sent to Timor to exterminate the pesky Australians, but copped a head shot while he was berating the cautiousness of his troops on patrol.

    The P14(T) remained the mainstay sniper for the rest of the war really. Although the No.1 Mk.3 H(T) was introduced in late 1944, you can see by the completion dates in Skinny's book that they could only have trickled out of the factory during 1944 and 1945. Out of the 2500 Australian Optical Company scopes ordered, only 1612 were fitted up by the time the war was effectively over and the fitting up was discontinued. Most examples circulating today were sent straight to store, with a very few in field issue green paint. There is little evidence that I have come across that they replaced the P14(T) in any substantial way. That latter statement is to be taken at face value - if anyone has any evidence otherwise, it would be good to share. There are some photos of them in the field in 1944/45, but not nuch.

    There was a program at Lithgow of refurbishing the P14(T)s, judging by some of the samples held by the SAF museum years ago. Some AOC scopes were fitted to P14(T)s by having the rear leg soldered into the correct position, with W serial number engraved - I can confirm sighting one of these. Some Eddystone or Remington rifles were apparently set up with AOC scopes, but others may know more about that. D

  24. #23
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    Winchester barrels would be like hens teeth in Australia and possibly elsewhere. The late Allan North had a Remington barrel that I was interested in but I didn't like his price but it eventually sold after a couple of years. You may have to attend a lot of gun shows when they start up again.

  25. #24
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    Any P14 barrel is scarce anywhere in the world. Being a substitute standard arm in itself there never was a ready supply of replacement parts. In my experience, albeit somewhat limited, I have yet to hear of a NOS barrel turning up on the loose. All have been used take offs and even those required hunting skills and luck to obtain.
    As you said, hens teeth....from a rare breed of chook!

  26. #25

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    Wish some of us in the USA could help with a take off barrel, but not sure it would be legal without lots of hoops. Glad you know what you've got and its on the road to recovery, its so rare its quite a catch!

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB White View Post
    Any P14 barrel is scarce anywhere in the world. Being a substitute standard arm in itself there never was a ready supply of replacement parts. In my experience, albeit somewhat limited, I have yet to hear of a NOS barrel turning up on the loose. All have been used take offs and even those required hunting skills and luck to obtain.
    As you said, hens teeth....from a rare breed of chook!
    I have seen exactly 2,

    both from an estate, older guy that was into big bore rifles back in the 50's and 60's,

    sad part was, both had be cut with a parting tool (on a lathe) so they were basically worthless,

    he stopped halfway thru the project on the receivers, some machine work done, but not finished,

    painful to look at,
    what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

  28. #27
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    Damien, you mention WRT the Lithgow HT Rifles, “very few in field issue green paint”... what green paint are you referring to? Might have a bit to add here....

    Mine has the D/I\D with a 2 above the arrow on the right sight protector. Is that the NSW mark you are referring to?
    It also has 228 prefix added to the serial number. Is that rifle 228 or MD2, rifle No28?
    Anyone seen a similar marked rifle with three digit number prefix that starts with a 1 or a two digit prefix?
    .....if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but enough people call it a chicken, then it will be a chicken!

    think about it...

  29. #28
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    I don’t have another P14 rifle to compare the markings to, so cannot comment there. The scopes were stamped with the rifles serial number.
    .....if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but enough people call it a chicken, then it will be a chicken!

    think about it...

  30. #29
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    I have a Winchester P14 barrel but you wouldn't want it. Bubba done got to it first. two sets of holes on both the front and rear receiver rings. And Bubba done ran one drill bit right down the front of the breechface of the barrel.Shame as it has a nice decent bore. Besides you have to go through a bunch of hoops to export the barrel and the fees would greatly exceed the cost of the barrel. Frank

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