The search is OVER! Snagged a Gew 88/14 ! ! ! ! !
JPS
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 11:44:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Gents,
A heart felt thanks to Mauser Bill for the heads up as otherwise, I would never have found this rifle. I have been looking for an honest to God, Gew 88/14 for a LOOOOOOONNNNGGG TIME! Every time I saw one advertised, it turned out to be a miss IDed Gew 88/05. Not this one. It's the real Mc Coy!
The rifle should arrive before the end of the week. I will examine it carefully and take lots of photos and then post what ever I come up with this coming weekend.
The Gew 88/14 was a war time, charger loading conversion of the Gew 88. This eliminated the en-bloc Mannlicher clips and allowed the use of standard Mauser stripper clips with the converted rifles. An estimated 200,000+ Gew 88s had been altered in an orderly fashion prior to the war, beginning in 1905. These rifles are designated as Gew 88/05s. The conversion of an additional 75,000 rifles was authorized in late 1914 and begun in early 1915. The work carried into 1916.
Both conversions function the same with the primary difference being in the manner in which the stripper clip guides were constructed. The fairly common Gew 88/05 has two machined plates riveted in place on either side of the split receiver bridge. By comparison, the war time converted Gew 88/14s had the clip guides built up via welding, the welded portions then being shaped via grinding and filing. The finish on the Gew 88/14s is reported to be much less refined than the earlier pre war conversions.
Here are some photos I received from the seller. I'll have more when the rifle arrives. The only other example I have ever seen is shown in a series of photographs in Gotz's book, "German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871-1945". Some people have speculated that due to the rarity of these rifles today, that the model never really existed. However, the conversions are documented in Germany and there is at least one example I now know of other than the one in Gotz's book! It's more likely that the surving rifles were shipped to Bulgarian and Turkey towards the end of the war and the balance was either lost during the war or destroyed shortly there after as part of the peace terms forced upon Germany by the Allies. There are undoubtedly other examples owned by folks who simply don't know what they have.
This one has been on my WANT List for a long time. Thank you Bill! I owe you one.
Warmest regards,
JPS
ssnider
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 8:43:25 PM
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Wow, I have never seen one, congrats!!!!
gew88guy
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 9:11:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JPS you lucky dog !
What's the arsenal/year ?
Thanks for the pic - now I know what an 88/14 looks like .
You could sure never confuse that with an 88/05.
PeterS
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 01:35:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi JPS,
verry, verry nice find!!!
The first one i've seen (expect in Götz's book).
JPS
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 11:29:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo PeterS, Gew88Guy & SSnider,
Thanks guys! Yep, I'm really jazzed about this one. The rifle is an 1890 dated Amberg. I posted threads here and on the Mauser Forum. The thread on the Mauser Forum has really taken off, so you can catch up on additional detail over there. Based on input from everyone, this may in fact be one of two 88/14s that have been sold by Great War Militaria in the past 10 years. Then there is the example in Gotz and another rifle seen by Doc Av in Australia. Not a very high survival rate considering they converted an estimated 75,000+ using this technique. I will post lots of photos after I receive the rifle including side by side shots with a Gew 88/05 so there is no question as to the difference in the construction of the clip guides. You should check out the thread on the Mauser Forum. Thanks again for the back slapping! This one really has me excited!
Warmest regards,
JPS
* * *
Rare photos of Gewehr 88/14
* * *
Krag
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 09:31:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see many, many Gew. 88/05s but have yet to see a Gew. 88/14. What happened to them all?
JPS
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 11:22:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Krag,
The general consensus, which is pure speculation on the part of a variety of collectors, is that they were most likely destroyed along with a broad cross section of other obsolete models after the war as part of the German attempt to meet the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. They destroyed as many of the older rifles as possible to save as many Kar 98s and Gew 98s as possible. One of the terms of the treaty called for the destruction of a broad cross section of small arms.
A substantial number would have been lost to attrition as the reworked versions of the Gew 88 remained in service for the majority of the war in spite of increased production of the Gew 98 and Kar 98.
It's obvious that they were never shipped to Turkey in great numbers or they would have showed up in some quantity along with all of the Turkish marked Gew 88s and Gew 88/05s, which are currently in circulation.
The only two examples that anyone has ever seen on the boards are the example that was photographed for Gotz's book and the example in my collection. I have never seen a single Gew 88/14 in any of the museum or private collections I have visited in the US or Europe.
Hope this little bit of info helps! Here are some photos of my example.
Warmest regards,
JPS
dg13
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 12:55:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am one of those collectors that JPS is refering to. They were burnt up and destroyed in compliance with the Versailes Treaty. I remember seeing a picture somewhere of stacks and stacks of them being torched.
dg13
Krag
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 5:44:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JPS - I found a guy in Canada who has one but his has a much larger thumb cutout in the left receiver wall than your's?
JPS
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 10:58:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Krag,
The rifle in Canada makes three, at least that we know of. I am sure that there has to be the odd example that was a bring back that is sitting in the closet of someone who doesn't know what they have.
But even taking the odd misidentified examples that must be around somewhere into consideration, they are still rarer than hens teeth.
As for the thumb cut out being larger on the rifle in Canada, how does it compare to the photos in Gotz's book? Very interesting! Can you post some photos of the rifle from Canada?
1816flintlock
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 10:57:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is the difference between the Gew 88/05 and Gew 88/14? Stephen
Krag
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 2:14:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The primary difference is the 88/05 has the charger guides riveted to the receiver and then nicely finished. The 88/14's guards are welded on and look like they were done with a soldering iron in a high school remedial industrial arts/shop class.
Krag
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 2:15:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JPS - the thumb clearence cut on my Canuck friend's 88/14 is larger that either your's on the one in Gotz's book. He is supposed to send me some pictures and I'll post them here if he does.
JPS
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 11:44:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Gents,
A heart felt thanks to Mauser Bill for the heads up as otherwise, I would never have found this rifle. I have been looking for an honest to God, Gew 88/14 for a LOOOOOOONNNNGGG TIME! Every time I saw one advertised, it turned out to be a miss IDed Gew 88/05. Not this one. It's the real Mc Coy!
The rifle should arrive before the end of the week. I will examine it carefully and take lots of photos and then post what ever I come up with this coming weekend.
The Gew 88/14 was a war time, charger loading conversion of the Gew 88. This eliminated the en-bloc Mannlicher clips and allowed the use of standard Mauser stripper clips with the converted rifles. An estimated 200,000+ Gew 88s had been altered in an orderly fashion prior to the war, beginning in 1905. These rifles are designated as Gew 88/05s. The conversion of an additional 75,000 rifles was authorized in late 1914 and begun in early 1915. The work carried into 1916.
Both conversions function the same with the primary difference being in the manner in which the stripper clip guides were constructed. The fairly common Gew 88/05 has two machined plates riveted in place on either side of the split receiver bridge. By comparison, the war time converted Gew 88/14s had the clip guides built up via welding, the welded portions then being shaped via grinding and filing. The finish on the Gew 88/14s is reported to be much less refined than the earlier pre war conversions.
Here are some photos I received from the seller. I'll have more when the rifle arrives. The only other example I have ever seen is shown in a series of photographs in Gotz's book, "German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871-1945". Some people have speculated that due to the rarity of these rifles today, that the model never really existed. However, the conversions are documented in Germany and there is at least one example I now know of other than the one in Gotz's book! It's more likely that the surving rifles were shipped to Bulgarian and Turkey towards the end of the war and the balance was either lost during the war or destroyed shortly there after as part of the peace terms forced upon Germany by the Allies. There are undoubtedly other examples owned by folks who simply don't know what they have.
This one has been on my WANT List for a long time. Thank you Bill! I owe you one.
Warmest regards,
JPS
ssnider
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 8:43:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, I have never seen one, congrats!!!!
gew88guy
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 9:11:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JPS you lucky dog !
What's the arsenal/year ?
Thanks for the pic - now I know what an 88/14 looks like .
You could sure never confuse that with an 88/05.
PeterS
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 01:35:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi JPS,
verry, verry nice find!!!
The first one i've seen (expect in Götz's book).
JPS
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 11:29:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo PeterS, Gew88Guy & SSnider,
Thanks guys! Yep, I'm really jazzed about this one. The rifle is an 1890 dated Amberg. I posted threads here and on the Mauser Forum. The thread on the Mauser Forum has really taken off, so you can catch up on additional detail over there. Based on input from everyone, this may in fact be one of two 88/14s that have been sold by Great War Militaria in the past 10 years. Then there is the example in Gotz and another rifle seen by Doc Av in Australia. Not a very high survival rate considering they converted an estimated 75,000+ using this technique. I will post lots of photos after I receive the rifle including side by side shots with a Gew 88/05 so there is no question as to the difference in the construction of the clip guides. You should check out the thread on the Mauser Forum. Thanks again for the back slapping! This one really has me excited!
Warmest regards,
JPS
* * *
Rare photos of Gewehr 88/14
* * *
Krag
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 09:31:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see many, many Gew. 88/05s but have yet to see a Gew. 88/14. What happened to them all?
JPS
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 11:22:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Krag,
The general consensus, which is pure speculation on the part of a variety of collectors, is that they were most likely destroyed along with a broad cross section of other obsolete models after the war as part of the German attempt to meet the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. They destroyed as many of the older rifles as possible to save as many Kar 98s and Gew 98s as possible. One of the terms of the treaty called for the destruction of a broad cross section of small arms.
A substantial number would have been lost to attrition as the reworked versions of the Gew 88 remained in service for the majority of the war in spite of increased production of the Gew 98 and Kar 98.
It's obvious that they were never shipped to Turkey in great numbers or they would have showed up in some quantity along with all of the Turkish marked Gew 88s and Gew 88/05s, which are currently in circulation.
The only two examples that anyone has ever seen on the boards are the example that was photographed for Gotz's book and the example in my collection. I have never seen a single Gew 88/14 in any of the museum or private collections I have visited in the US or Europe.
Hope this little bit of info helps! Here are some photos of my example.
Warmest regards,
JPS
dg13
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 12:55:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am one of those collectors that JPS is refering to. They were burnt up and destroyed in compliance with the Versailes Treaty. I remember seeing a picture somewhere of stacks and stacks of them being torched.
dg13
Krag
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 5:44:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JPS - I found a guy in Canada who has one but his has a much larger thumb cutout in the left receiver wall than your's?
JPS
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 10:58:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Krag,
The rifle in Canada makes three, at least that we know of. I am sure that there has to be the odd example that was a bring back that is sitting in the closet of someone who doesn't know what they have.
But even taking the odd misidentified examples that must be around somewhere into consideration, they are still rarer than hens teeth.
As for the thumb cut out being larger on the rifle in Canada, how does it compare to the photos in Gotz's book? Very interesting! Can you post some photos of the rifle from Canada?
1816flintlock
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 10:57:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is the difference between the Gew 88/05 and Gew 88/14? Stephen
Krag
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 2:14:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The primary difference is the 88/05 has the charger guides riveted to the receiver and then nicely finished. The 88/14's guards are welded on and look like they were done with a soldering iron in a high school remedial industrial arts/shop class.
Krag
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 2:15:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JPS - the thumb clearence cut on my Canuck friend's 88/14 is larger that either your's on the one in Gotz's book. He is supposed to send me some pictures and I'll post them here if he does.