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Rare photos of Gewehr 88/14

49K views 18 replies 11 participants last post by  chiefwoods 
#1 · (Edited)
The search is OVER! Snagged a Gew 88/14 ! ! ! ! !

JPS
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 11:44:55 AM
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Yo Gents,

A heart felt thanks to Mauser Bill for the heads up as otherwise, I would never have found this rifle. I have been looking for an honest to God, Gew 88/14 for a LOOOOOOONNNNGGG TIME! Every time I saw one advertised, it turned out to be a miss IDed Gew 88/05. Not this one. It's the real Mc Coy!

The rifle should arrive before the end of the week. I will examine it carefully and take lots of photos and then post what ever I come up with this coming weekend.

The Gew 88/14 was a war time, charger loading conversion of the Gew 88. This eliminated the en-bloc Mannlicher clips and allowed the use of standard Mauser stripper clips with the converted rifles. An estimated 200,000+ Gew 88s had been altered in an orderly fashion prior to the war, beginning in 1905. These rifles are designated as Gew 88/05s. The conversion of an additional 75,000 rifles was authorized in late 1914 and begun in early 1915. The work carried into 1916.

Both conversions function the same with the primary difference being in the manner in which the stripper clip guides were constructed. The fairly common Gew 88/05 has two machined plates riveted in place on either side of the split receiver bridge. By comparison, the war time converted Gew 88/14s had the clip guides built up via welding, the welded portions then being shaped via grinding and filing. The finish on the Gew 88/14s is reported to be much less refined than the earlier pre war conversions.

Here are some photos I received from the seller. I'll have more when the rifle arrives. The only other example I have ever seen is shown in a series of photographs in Gotz's book, "German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871-1945". Some people have speculated that due to the rarity of these rifles today, that the model never really existed. However, the conversions are documented in Germany and there is at least one example I now know of other than the one in Gotz's book! It's more likely that the surving rifles were shipped to Bulgarian and Turkey towards the end of the war and the balance was either lost during the war or destroyed shortly there after as part of the peace terms forced upon Germany by the Allies. There are undoubtedly other examples owned by folks who simply don't know what they have.

This one has been on my WANT List for a long time. Thank you Bill! I owe you one.

Warmest regards,

JPS



ssnider
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 8:43:25 PM
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Wow, I have never seen one, congrats!!!!



gew88guy
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 9:11:04 PM
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JPS you lucky dog !

What's the arsenal/year ?

Thanks for the pic - now I know what an 88/14 looks like .

You could sure never confuse that with an 88/05.



PeterS
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 01:35:13 AM
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Hi JPS,
verry, verry nice find!!!
The first one i've seen (expect in Götz's book).



JPS
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 11:29:04 AM
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Yo PeterS, Gew88Guy & SSnider,

Thanks guys! Yep, I'm really jazzed about this one. The rifle is an 1890 dated Amberg. I posted threads here and on the Mauser Forum. The thread on the Mauser Forum has really taken off, so you can catch up on additional detail over there. Based on input from everyone, this may in fact be one of two 88/14s that have been sold by Great War Militaria in the past 10 years. Then there is the example in Gotz and another rifle seen by Doc Av in Australia. Not a very high survival rate considering they converted an estimated 75,000+ using this technique. I will post lots of photos after I receive the rifle including side by side shots with a Gew 88/05 so there is no question as to the difference in the construction of the clip guides. You should check out the thread on the Mauser Forum. Thanks again for the back slapping! This one really has me excited!

Warmest regards,
JPS

* * *
Rare photos of Gewehr 88/14
* * *

Krag
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 09:31:13 AM
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I see many, many Gew. 88/05s but have yet to see a Gew. 88/14. What happened to them all?



JPS
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 11:22:00 AM
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Yo Krag,

The general consensus, which is pure speculation on the part of a variety of collectors, is that they were most likely destroyed along with a broad cross section of other obsolete models after the war as part of the German attempt to meet the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. They destroyed as many of the older rifles as possible to save as many Kar 98s and Gew 98s as possible. One of the terms of the treaty called for the destruction of a broad cross section of small arms.

A substantial number would have been lost to attrition as the reworked versions of the Gew 88 remained in service for the majority of the war in spite of increased production of the Gew 98 and Kar 98.

It's obvious that they were never shipped to Turkey in great numbers or they would have showed up in some quantity along with all of the Turkish marked Gew 88s and Gew 88/05s, which are currently in circulation.

The only two examples that anyone has ever seen on the boards are the example that was photographed for Gotz's book and the example in my collection. I have never seen a single Gew 88/14 in any of the museum or private collections I have visited in the US or Europe.

Hope this little bit of info helps! Here are some photos of my example.

Warmest regards,

JPS










dg13
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 12:55:11 PM
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I am one of those collectors that JPS is refering to. They were burnt up and destroyed in compliance with the Versailes Treaty. I remember seeing a picture somewhere of stacks and stacks of them being torched.
dg13



Krag
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 5:44:38 PM
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JPS - I found a guy in Canada who has one but his has a much larger thumb cutout in the left receiver wall than your's?



JPS
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 10:58:37 PM
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Yo Krag,

The rifle in Canada makes three, at least that we know of. I am sure that there has to be the odd example that was a bring back that is sitting in the closet of someone who doesn't know what they have.

But even taking the odd misidentified examples that must be around somewhere into consideration, they are still rarer than hens teeth.

As for the thumb cut out being larger on the rifle in Canada, how does it compare to the photos in Gotz's book? Very interesting! Can you post some photos of the rifle from Canada?



1816flintlock
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 10:57:39 AM
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Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is the difference between the Gew 88/05 and Gew 88/14? Stephen


Krag
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 2:14:39 PM
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The primary difference is the 88/05 has the charger guides riveted to the receiver and then nicely finished. The 88/14's guards are welded on and look like they were done with a soldering iron in a high school remedial industrial arts/shop class.



Krag
Posted - 05/10/2006 : 2:15:54 PM
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JPS - the thumb clearence cut on my Canuck friend's 88/14 is larger that either your's on the one in Gotz's book. He is supposed to send me some pictures and I'll post them here if he does.
 
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#3 ·
Here is one other older post from John Sheehan:

JPS
Posted - 10/07/2004 : 11:19:27 PM
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Leave it to you to ask the $ 64 question. I'll give you the short, "hope we don't start that discussion up again", answer.

According to information provided by Walter and Gotz, an estimated 75,000 rifles (according to Walter) were converted to the Gew 88/14 configuration during 1915 and 1916. Where they went from there has become the subject of much discussion. There were an estimated 48,440 Gew 88/14s still on hand in German service in 1917 (according to Gotz) before the first major shipments of Gew 88s were sent to Turkey.

Had the surviving Gew 88/14 rifles been shipped to Turkey, more of them should have surfaced by now. Many of 200,000 prewar Gew 88/05 conversions were sent to Turkey, however, Turkish marked 88/05s show up all the time. Gew 88/14s on the other hand, are near non existent. I have never seen a Turkish marked Gew 88/14. But then you have to consider that in over 20 years of collecting, I have only ever seen one Gew 88/14 in person (the one I own) and a second one in photos (the example pictured in Gotz book). This, in my opinion, precludes the Gew 88/14s having been sent to Turkey.

My best guess is that they were retained in Germany and destroyed as part of the terms of the armistice. The example in my collection is EWB marked, so we know that it was in Germany at the end of the war. Gotz states that the plan was to arm the EWB completely out of stocks of surviving Gew 88S, 88/05s and 88/14s, but that the rifles had already been destroyed per the terms of the armistice when the EWB was being equipped.

There are some that believe the near total absence of surviving examples points to the Gew 88/14 as having been experimental rather than a general issue conversion. I don't personally believe this, but then again, we aren't exactly floating in them. Hope this info helps! Better still, perhaps you know of a warehouse somewhere with several racks full of 88/14s? I know that I would like to have a second example! I'm sure that we could find a few more folks out there who are also looking for one. T.P.? Darrell? Mike perhaps?

Hope this info helps!

Warmest regards,

JPS
 
#6 ·
Hello Wildcat,

More than likely, what you ended up with is a Gew 88-05 magazine. These were converted in large number prior to WWI and appear quite frequently on the market, both in original condition as supplied to Turkey in 1917 or parted out in the case of rifles that are too far gone to salvage.

It appears that the old thread is gone, so a quick note is in order to confirm that Dr. Dieter Storz, the author of the excellent book on the Gew 98 confirmed that this rifle is indeed a very rare M88-14. It matches the example that is in the Museum collection in Bavaria where he is the curator of small arms.

Here are some additional photos that were shot for Paul Scarlata's comprehensive book on the Gew 88 along with a few other photos I have on file. If you want to be absolutely certain as to the identity of your magazine, please post some photos on this thread and everyone will wade in.

Warmest regards,


JPS
 
#7 · (Edited)
#8 ·
88/05/14

I am not very familiar with the 88.my first was in 1950s when I got one.now I have two from center fire.one is complete,and one is without stock and bolt head.I bought the mag as the second gun did not have one.It had an insert which I took out.what is the diference in the 05 and 14 in the mag.as this one took 98 stripper clip to load.I can post pictures but the mag is installed in the gun and would look just like a normal 88 mag.the gun holds the charger but the latch is gone,as it was taken out for the adapter.
 
#11 ·
#12 ·
I see this thread is quite old but i will still chime in. I just added what i believe is a 88/14 to my stable. I will post pics soon if i can figure out how to do it. maybe its a 88/05 but it has the welded stripper clip guides and Turkish markings but it still sweet gun. cant wait to shoot it. I have my eyes on another one too, might get it soon but there's this Canadian snider that may get purchased first.
 
#14 ·
Hello Gewer43,

I didn't check Nick's link, however I have just posted another round of photos above. Compare your rifle's clip guides very carefully and if it looks like the rifle in the photos above, please post photos here on this thread.

And......IMHO......If you DO have a Gew 88/14 it would be a huge mistake (once again in my opinion!) to shoot it!!!! There are only a few known surviving examples of this ultra-rare rifle and SO MANY Gew 88/05s to shoot which for all intense and purposes, are the same rifles in terms of actually shooting them.

I shoot several Turkish marked Gew 88/05 instead of my Gew 88/14, I shoot a beautiful M1891 Argentine Mauser instead of my Turkish M1890s or my Belgian M1889s. If anything goes wrong, you could damage an extremely rare rifle. And it doesn happen! Ask Karl-Heinz about his friends Russian M1907 carbine!!!

Just my $ .02 worth relative to the rarity of this rifle if it is in fact a Gew 88/14. And whether you decide to shoot it or not, GREAT FIND!

Warmest regards,

JPS
 
#13 ·
Hello Gents,

I didn't realize that we had lost the photos on this old thread again. Here you go.

Warmest regards,

JPS
 

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#15 ·
I believe my clip guides look different, not sure what i have now, wasn't sure what i had before either. i will try to get pics up soon so someone can let me know, but the gun room filled to ceiling with clothes and boxes. We just moved and i'm still unpacking my crap. my guns clip guides looks identical to the gun on page 94 in Paul Scarlata's article on the g88 in the 2008 guns and ammo surplus firearms magazine. And as for shooting it, I have a box of ows j-bore 8mm Mauser, low power loads. Just want to shoot one round thru it. Just to make sure it works and to have fired a g88. I don't shoot much anymore, but I too don't want to f up a great gun. Got a minty KAR98a i was going to test too but now I'm rethinking shooting that.
 
#16 ·
gewer43, Welcome to Gunboards and especially to the world of the Gew88 and it's variations. Check the link that Nick posted and look closely at the pictures that John posted above. There are comparison shots of the 88/05 and the 88/14 posted in the thread from 2004 in Nick's link and you will readily see the differences. It sounds like you have a Gew88/05. It is not a rifle to be ashamed of or disappointed in. If it is a Gew88/05, hope you enjoy shooting it.

Enjoy your time here and ask plenty of questions, there are many very knowledgeable people here that are more than happy to help.
 
#18 ·
There is an 88/14 on one of the auction sites. However it appears to be an 88/05.
I guess anyone can call a rifle what they want in hopes of finding a sucker.
 
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